View source for Talk:Mender (3.5e Class)

== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Zhenra-Khal
|rating=favor
|reason=This is exactly what Healer should've been. Adding to my list of homebrew classes allowed in my campaigns~
}}== Just starting this page ==

All comments welcome. {{unsigned|Qwertyu63}}

== Multiplying Wis an Cha ==

This may have results you aren't expecting. Small differences in stats will make bigger and bigger changes as levels are gained. 

For example:

* Level 1 14/14 gives 4 points, 16/16 gives 9 points. Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal (although double is pretty huge to me, it is a 5 point difference).
* Level 5, we can have a +2 item for both of them. 16/16 gives 27 points, 18/18 gives 48 points (21 point difference).
* Level 10, we can have a +4 item for both of them, one stat is +2 from levels. 20/18 gives 100 points, 22/20 gives 150 points (50 point difference).
* Level 15, we can have a +6 item for both of them, one stat is +2 from levels, another can be +2 from wishes at this point. 22/22 gives 288 points, 24/24 gives 392 points (104 point difference).
* Level 20, we can have a +6 item for both of them, one stat is +5 from levels, both are +5 from wishes. 30/25 gives 700 points, 32/27 gives 880 points (180 point difference).
* Alternatively, we can have a +6 item for both of them, one stat is +3 from levels one stat is +2 from levels, both are +5 from wishes. 28/27 gives 720 points, 30/29 gives 900 points (still 180 point difference).

That's the first thing you may want to consider. The points get crazy in the first place, but they also diverge fast. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] ([[User talk:Aarnott|talk]]) 16:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

: Starting at 16/16 is in fact the base from which all my math is done. The class assumes that you have decent scores in both. I am aware that slacking off on one can sink your points total.  {{unsigned|Qwertyu63}}

== Healing Burst ==

It be crazy. Considering the extreme case of level 20, you will heal 100d8 (standard action) + 90d8 swift action. That's 855 HP each round, which can go for a while given the number of points you get. Or you can use split burst for 65d8 to 2 targets + 55d8 to 2 targets for a total of 240d8 or 1080 HP. Not really a moderate balance class (and above a high balance class too, but maybe not good enough for VH). --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] ([[User talk:Aarnott|talk]]) 17:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

: Realize, you can only heal someone to the max. Even with the class switching excess over to temp HP, there is still a limit (temp from this can not exceed normal max). Even though you can heal for 100d8, most of that will be wasted anyway. So don't heal for that much. That said, it is intended to be crazy. Healing needs the help to keep up. However, if you think I should increase the listed balance level, I can. I wasn't shooting for a given level anyway. To use the tiers (as they are the system I know), I saw this as solidly tier 3.  {{unsigned|Qwertyu63}}

::True, but it still effectively doubles a 4 person party's HP always and has the party always at full HP. To me, this means, unless your DM is throwing stuff dealing enough HP damage to kill (at double their HP) in one round, which is basically a save-or-die just using AC instead, this class makes the party effectively immune to HP damage. But wait, there's more! Positive Well makes the party immune to save-or-dies. So enemies can't kill the party with HP damage or spells. I see that as a problem. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] ([[User talk:Aarnott|talk]]) 20:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

:::All of that, until the points run out. It becomes a war of attrition or of overwhelming force... That said, due to my misunderstanding of the balance point system here, the listed balance point has been revised. I could revise it again if need be. --[[User:Qwertyu63|Qwertyu63]] ([[User talk:Qwertyu63|talk]]) 02:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

::::If you insist keeping it as-is, then it is Very High. It may not have the flexibility of a wizard, but making the party effectively immune to dying is even stronger than what wizards can do. I'll put a more detailed look at the class in another section, with the assumption that the balance you want is VH. I may not get to it today, however. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] ([[User talk:Aarnott|talk]]) 18:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

== Comments and Criticism ==

Some overall comments before I get into the meat of it. Ignoring its power-level, there's something with this class that makes me really not like it: it would be extremely boring to play. You can heal HP (or basically put up temp HP shields) and remove/prevent conditions. Early on, the resource management of the Life Force pool could keep things interesting, but not terribly so.

Damaging undead is alright, although really, clerics already do it better with Turn Undead, which is something they have in addition to being a combat machine and utility spellcaster. Calming burst is one option you have to actually do something and would be fun (against the things it can actually work on). Also, at level 4 you can summon elementals, which add a bit of fun. Well maybe. The lack of variety of summons makes this ability a whole lot less interesting than any other summoner.

The problem is that this class is all healing and no real contribution besides "we didn't die" from the player. If you've ever played a cleric that is expected to fill all their spell slots with cure spells, you will know why this is horribly dull.

Hopefully you won't take my criticism too harshly. I'm just trying to point out what I see as serious problems. I'd be happy to help make the class better so that these problems aren't there.

Here is a list of some comments regarding the class features:

'''BAB'''

The 1/2 BAB progression contributes greatly to this class being uninteresting. No worthwhile physical contributions are going to happen, so everything fun needs to come from class abilities. Even if you gave 3/4 BAB or full BAB, there aren't any abilities to help make attacks worthwhile (adding conditions or scaling up damage).

'''Life Force'''

The amount of points rises somewhat exponentially. This isn't necessarily a problem, but as I mentioned before, this can lead to pretty large differences in capabilities. Looking at the [[SRD:Psion|Psion]] as an example character that uses a pool of points, you can see that ability score modifier differences account for ~3% of total power points at level 20 per modifier. This is a good thing, in my opinion, because it gives a baseline for how many things the psion can do before being out of resources. This class has a huge range, which makes it either a trap choice or has the potential to be far more powerful than you designed it to be.

There are also just too many points to work with at high levels. With 900 points (which is 1800 per day from this class feature alone), keeping up Positive Well (2 points per turn), taking 4 insta-death attacks per turn (36 points per turn), and using a swift and standard action to use healing bursts (40 points per turn), the class can last 23 turns. The typical encounter tends to be around 4 rounds, and there is supposed to be around 4 encounters a day. This means that this class can operate at full power all the time. That is, the party is always basically invincible.

'''Healing Burst'''

The numbers are just too big with this ability to be able to be used so frequently. It also scales somewhat strangely:

* Level 1: 1d8 (+1d8 for each level)
* Level 4: 4d8
* Level 5: 10d8 (+2d8 for each level)
* Level 9: 18d8
* Level 10: 30d8 (+3d8 for each level)
* Level 14: 42d8
* Level 15: 60d8 (+4d8 for each level)
* Level 19: 76d8
* Level 20: 100d8

I'll note that it gets crazy around level 10. A tough-ish player would have about 125 HP (+6 con mod, d12 HD). 30d8 surpasses that, on average.

There's a similar class feature for a homebrew on the wiki that does the temp HP shields well, imo. The class is [[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]]'s [[Marshal (3.5e Class)|Marshal]]. It can put up a pretty high powered shield on a single dude or spread out the shield among several dudes. But even then, it will run out of resources mid combat and need to recharge (giving a round for the enemies to take advantage of the vulnerabilities).

The duration of 1 min makes it pretty easy to keep shields up on allies. The ability to affect everyone in 30 ft. meakes it pretty cost efficient too. In the end, I see this ability making HP damage far too irrelevant.

'''Mender's Eyes'''

Cool feature. I wouldn't change this at all.

'''Healing Talent'''

Works fine, although doesn't really offer anything the class wasn't already doing.

'''Far Burst'''

It adds a bit of versatility and makes the class a little less boring to play.

'''Calming Burst'''

This feature adds a bit of fun to the class, although it would certainly get old. It's nice to have something the Mender can actually do (rather than just sitting around healing every round). Interesting side effect that you have to heal enemies to use it on them.

The DC scales really badly. Base DC 10 at level 2 (lower than spells at this point), then 13 at level 5 (equal to spells), then progression goes way faster than spells. It's like an 18th level spell at level 20.

'''Planar Calm'''

The field would drain too fast to actually be relevant for a positive plane adventure. Think about it. Travveling 1 hour is 100 rounds.

Otherwise, it's fine (although a bit strange to be giving planar abilities way before most games start having planar travel).

'''Swift Burst'''

Again, makes the class a bit less boring to play. All of the Healing Burst modifiers do this a bit, but still not enough to actually make it really interesting.

'''Boosting Burst'''

It's good because it allows you to start doing some other things than just healing. It's bad because those other things are just predetermined buffs (until level 14) and those buffs just make your party do things a bit better. You are now a buff/heal bot for the group, which isn't that much of a role change.

Level 14 is more interesting. Broken, but interesting. If resources mattered, it would mean that you can spend your points to make an ally get 2 full attacks. It's a bit early since Time Stands Still doesn't even come till 17th level. It's also too strong because when combined with Swift Burst and Split Burst, you can give 2 allies 2 extra full attack actions. At least you limited spellcasting (though maneuvers are totally legal!).

'''Wiping Burst'''

More healbot stuff.

'''Positive Call'''

I like that this feature allows you to contribute. However, the CR of these summons is pretty darn low considering their only utility is to bash stuff or become healbots. They probably won't do the latter since it's already very well covered. This lacks the variety a real summoner gets since they can summon in monsters with useful SLAs.

'''Positive Well'''

I think you know how I feel about this one. If the class is going to be Very High in balance, rendering all Save-or-Die spells useless is amazingly strong.

'''Mender's Sprite'''

More healbot stuff that is probably too weak to be very effective.

'''Curing Burst'''

More healbot stuff.

'''Bank Life'''

It's okay. I doubt it will have many uses in an actual game, but making temporary potions is fine.

'''Split Burst'''

More healbot stuff.

'''Life Spring'''

Given how many points you have, getting an extra 80 points per day at level 20 makes this ability seem really lackluster.

'''Return from Death'''

More healbot stuff. Good to have though for any party, just not something making the class more fun.

'''Restoring Burst'''

More healbot stuff.

'''Bank Wipe'''

Well, making a condition removal potion is interesting. But again, I doubt it would see a ton of use.

'''Planar Ties'''

Yay, now you get to be the party's taxi too. Well, not as good a taxi as the Wizard who isn't restricted and can also do fun stuff, but still a taxi.

'''Wide Burst'''

More healbot stuff.

'''Last Breath'''

Better make sure that healbot can keep doing stuff it manages to get killed. If the class had cool things to do, I'd find this interesting.

'''Pure Life'''

Sure, this is ok.

'''Bank Restore'''

Same comments as with the other "Bank" features.

'''Life Bond'''

This is fine.

'''Epic Toughness'''

Why?

'''Hope Springs Eternal'''

Basically the same comment as Last Breath.


Hopefully that gives you some stuff to think about. Let me know if you need any clarification or want some help reworking class features. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] ([[User talk:Aarnott|talk]]) 23:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

:I'm just going to address the features to which you said something interesting and to which I can think of something to say. I could respond to each in turn, but it would be a boring "Alright then." on most of them.

:'''Life Force:''' Where did you get 1800 per day from this feature? If the pool size is 900 points, then this feature is 900 per day. That said, attaching the scaling of the points directly to scores was intentional. I want those to matter.
:'''Healing Burst:''' I wanted this ability to get better as you leveled up. Can you think of a better scaling pattern, bearing in mind the crazy healing is intentional?
:'''Boosting Burst:''' Crap. Thank you for making me spot a limit I should have put on that thing. The full ability should be once per person per turn.
:'''Positive Well:''' This feature is supposed to be this classes version of Death Ward, a spell that is level 4-5 depending on the caster.
:'''Epic Toughness:''' Why not? I wanted a second feature for that level, and it seemed to fill the gap.

:Overall, healbot is the target. I am playing one of these in a game ATM, and I find it quite fun to play. It's not for everyone, but some people like the concept. Also, thank you for your time. --[[User:Qwertyu63|Qwertyu63]] ([[User talk:Qwertyu63|talk]]) 01:57, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

::'''Life Force:'''  "Once per day, a mender can refill this pool to its maximum value". 900 + 900 = 1800.
::'''Healing Burst:''' Well, being intentionally huge in the end, it may be fine as-is. Well, fine for what your goal is. Other casters grow exponentially too after all.
::'''Positive Well:''' There's a huge difference between this and Death Ward. It can be dispelled, this cannot.
::'''Epic Toughness:''' It doesn't really fit the rest of the class very well. It seems like it is exactly what you said: something to fill the gap.

:: If you really need to keep the class stuck to just healing, at least boost the abilities that are incredibly weak (like the sprites, bank life, and life spring). If I took a crack at this, I'd add some offensive capabilities or control capabilities. Here are some examples off the top of my head. You would need to figure out point costs.

:: '''Offensive''' (would be nice to have 3/4 BAB with these)
::* Revenge: Whenever you heal a creature's hitpoints, gain a +1 (stackable) bonus to damage rolls until the end of your next turn for every 2 hitpoints healed.
::** This will actually make you want to let your allies get a bit damaged (rather than being boring and topping them up every round). If you want to make it less powerful, just have it affect the next attack you do before the end of the next round.
::** As an example, healing 200 HP in one round will give +100 damage to all attacks next round. With haste, that's 400 damage for a full attack, which is actually competitive enough to make a difference without taking over the role of primary damage dealing.
::* Light blade: You channel energy from the plane of radiance and form a blade of pure light. It acts as a brilliant energy ghost touch weapon of your choice (chosen when you manifest it as a swift action) with an enhancement bonus equal to 1/3 your class level. It deals +1d8 damage per enhancement bonus and all damage it deals cannot be reduced.
::* Summon Positive Energy Monster: Summon monster, but add a positive energy template (just similar changes to what you did with the elementals).

:: '''Control'''
::* Lifelink: As the spell [[SRD:Shield Other|Shield Other]], but you can designate a pair of creatures, one as the shielded and the other as the shield). Each creature can make a saving throw DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Wis or Cha (or however you want to make that work with points). Creatures can only be part of 1 lifelink.
::** Fun stuff where you make enemies take damage they deal to your allies.
::* Blinding Ray/Cone: Save vs. blindness. Different area types to mimic Glitterdust/blindness.
::* Light Barrier: Like Wall of Force, but also sheds daylight. Also can do a force cage equivalent.
::* Light Bubble: Like [[SRD:Resilient Sphere|Resilient Sphere]].
::** Maybe have it upgrade so it puts the target in some sort of stasis while in the bubble so that you can remove an opponent from combat completely (even if they are a caster).

::Anyways, the big things to tackle are the abilities that totally don't work right now. If you don't want to change it, that's fine, of course: I'll just add my rating and move on. It's up to you whether you think my input is an improvement and whether you want to change things. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] ([[User talk:Aarnott|talk]]) 18:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

:::"Once per day, the mender can refill this pool to its maximum value." That's just it. Once per day. This isn't on top of some other daily refill. That is the first 900. Where is this extra 900 coming from?
:::Positive Well burns up points when used. I can raise the cost, but the ability needs to stay, as it is an important defense.
:::I was worried the sprites would get too good. An extra set of actions is worth a fair bit. I could raise their levels though.
:::Improving bank life and life spring would be a hard thing to do. Life Spring: increase the points. But to what? Bank Life: What is there to change here?
:::Epic Toughness is also to help with the secondary role I chose for the class. That role being the really hard to kill guy.

:::Where offense is concerned, I did have something in the works. It wound up becoming a feat that just hasn't moved here because moving it isn't worth fighting with the captcha. It is as follows:
:::* You can, as a move action, choose to start emitting an overwhelming field of your own energy to enhance life energy around you. This field flares out to a radius of 30 feet. Every creature within this field gains fast healing 5. In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round. These points act just like points from your healing burst. However, a creature must make a DC 20 Fortitude save each round that its temporary hit points match or exceed its normal hit point total. Failing the saving throw results in the creature exploding in a riot of energy, killing it. Those who are immune to the effects of the positive-dominant planar trait are immune to this ability as well. Each round the field is up costs 4 points from your life force pool, and you can end the field as a free action.

:::Direct damage just isn't this classes cup of tea, with fluff or intended role. Damage shifting is better for another class I have in the pipeline, but it doesn't work for this one. --[[User:Qwertyu63|Qwertyu63]] ([[User talk:Qwertyu63|talk]]) 22:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

:::: Unless you have some way to incentivize/force enemies to attack you over allies, being "really hard to kill" isn't a role. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 23:06, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

:::::You may want to change "refill" on the points line to just plain "fill". I also read that as "start day with full points, once per day refill back to full points", and plain old regular 'fill' doesn't have those connotations. I also agree with Ghost on the hard to kill thing, though the incentive here may just be that you can fully heal any party member up if you're ignored (which suggests that it might work better as an interruptable action or one that provokes AoOs, but I haven't really thought about it).

:::::<aside> the capcha will stop bothering you if you confirm an email in your preferences. You can find "My Preferences" at the top right of the page (unless you're using a custom skin, then you're on your own), and the email registration is down near the bottom of that page. </aside> - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

::::::Yeah, the main incentive to try is the fact that while you are standing, they won't make much progress on fighting your allies.
::::::Also, I'll go make that wording change.
::::::Finally, thank you for telling me about confirming an email. I've now done so. --[[User:Qwertyu63|Qwertyu63]] ([[User talk:Qwertyu63|talk]]) 13:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)