View source for User talk:FiddleSticks96/Libris Vampiricus (3.5e Sourcebook)

== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Dragonexx
|rating=Neutral
|reason=Meh, I don't hate this like everyone else. Then again, I don't get a lot of the references (nor do I care where whether it's original or not anyways). It's pretty flavorful, though the whole thing about being a vampire is that if you want it to be balanced it's going to have to be all the way. Meaning that either all the players are going to be vampires, or none of them are.

That being said, the Black Penance is still ridiculous. The bonuses are nice, but as I said on the page, they won't matter when someone is at level 300 (not that that is ever likely to happen).

One other problem I have with this is LOL WALLS OF TEXT! Tons of fluff, and I have to sift through it for the actual crunch. Not to mention, that a lot of the rules are confusingly scattered about or redundant, making it difficult to find.

I want to like this, and I'd love to use it in my campaign, but perhaps if things were toned down somewhat.
}}

: Well my issue with the fluff was on how it was divorced from DnD. I mean you don't need to be original but in a sourcebook for DnD you'd expect more reference to the game and setting. By example fluff dealing with Ravenloft Vampire, a clan descending from Kas with a Vecna hate-cult or aboleth engineered psychic vampire. Even something basic like: Vampires and the Planes would have shown some efforts in reconciling the two. Note that I am not trying too be disrectpectful of your opinion, I am simply attempting to get my points across from the fluff perspective. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 18:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC) 

{{Rating |rater=Eiji-kun
|rating=oppose
|reason=Hey look, it's [http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54065 The Complete Book of Elves] for Vampires.

A pile of powerful nonsense for naught.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Undead Knave
|rating=oppose
|reason=What LD and Foxy said.  Yipes.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Foxwarrior
|rating=oppose
|reason=I'm sorry for not pointing this out a year ago, but this sourcebook needs to be pruned and overhauled completely before I could recommend its use to anyone.

For example, you take 143 words to say "Vampires don't need to breathe, except when they talk."

+2 CR for being a category C vampire is underpowered for the first couple of levels, but overpowered after that. No, wait, they get special bloodline stuff immediately too, nevermind; they're overpowered immediately, but only if you make sure to get assaulted by the right person.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=oppose
|reason=I do appreciate the work in a such an expansive article. However this book is formatted oddly and suffer from several problems. First it has a serious with it source material, taking from many sources in popular culture and not even making the faintest effort to conceal it (the clan from Morrowing, many terms from WoD and etc). Secondly the rules are too bulky and frankly useless, most of it is more power to bloodusckers which I feel personally annoying. 

Then you include things like a level 300 templates, huge amounts of abilities that barely share any signification or theme with DnD and a serious lack of flavor (most of this book are rules, even worse just abilities given to bloodsuckers) and the present flavor in the chapters is mostly generic, explaining some basic in overly long paragraphs. The flavor feel like the rules, too bulky and awkward, boring to read mostly.

I don't even hate vampires, but this book don't even attempt to be original, simplify the rules for vampire, make them more playable or deepen the mythos. It contain almost 0% original fluff, leeching for many sources from vastly different settings and just add a clutter of useless rules that were balanced on a dartboard. 

That too many nails in this coffin sir.  
}}=Important Note=

Please leave a message for me if you make any alterations to this sourcebook. I keep a copy of the whole thing in a folder on my computer and update this wiki sourcebook by copy and pasting from my computer. If I am unaware of any changes made by someone other than me those changes WILL be undone when I update the page they were made on.

=Stuff that needs doing=

This project is only 3/5 of the way done, so there's still a lot left to do. I've done everything on my own so far, but would be willing to accept help. I set out on this project never thinking it would come this far, but now that it has, know that everything that gets placed in this sourcebook MUST be approved by me. I am very open to 3rd, 4th, 20th opinions, and definitely more than open to another brain coming up with ideas, but I don’t want this book to deviate from how I envisioned it. 

Chapters 1 and 2 are the core rules followed by this book. Not all of the rules have been committed to paper (chapter 2) yet. I will fix that problem as soon as I’m done with a major overhaul of chapter 3. Everything that goes into this project is subject to the rules listed in chapter 2, but new terminology can be added to chapter 1 as new ideas are implemented. I am willing to alter the rules in chapter 2, but not without good reason.

Chapters 3 and 4 are the meat of Libris Vampiricus. I’m focused on chapter 3 right now, so I don’t have much thought processing power left for any of the other chapters atm. I have a few ideas for classes, monsters, and spell at the fringes of my mind, but I haven’t given these chapters much thought or attention yet. I try to add things as ideas come to mind, so updates can be sporadic at times.

Chapter 8 is mostly for clarity and a place to put alternate rules. If you come up with any ideas about how to make this sourcebook runs even smoother or an alternate rule that could change things up, let me know.

I won’t be posting any specific tasks for now. I need more time to go over exactly what needs to be done before I do that. For now, a general overview of where I’m at should suffice. There are also some things that need to be done that I won't be listing, such as the Vampire Age Master Charts. I'll be handling those specific tasks on my own.

The tasks below are the primary things that need doing, at least at the top of my head.

*Make more feats. There are a lot already, but many of the bloodlines lack any unique feats catered to their unique powers. There are no general feats at all.

*Make spells. I’ve only made one spell, and have a few ideas for some more. I’ve also got the Sangromancer class, which I need to finish making, and a few spells to go with it. Other than that I don’t have much to show for spells and items. Any help with this would be much appreciated.

*Monsters. I’ve added a couple templates and one new monster, but I’ve only just started giving thought new monsters. Not all monsters added to this section have to be undead or vampiric, but keep in mind that this sourcebook is centered on vampirism and anti-vampirism.

The tasks below are important, but secondary things that need doing, at least at the top of my head.

*Grammar fixes. Oh boy. There are two kinds of articles within this sourcebook. Those that I wrote before I took a grammar class and those I wrote after I took a grammar class. I am not kidding. There is so much that I still need to add that I haven’t even bothered with going over everything to fix grammar mistakes. I do the best I can as I see them. Any help would be much appreciated.

*Adding links. I haven’t added most of the links to things like Strength or Special Abilities. Things like +/-# bonus to (ability score) are listed all over the place, and only a few are actually linked. I didn’t know how to do this when I first started, which is why they aren’t linked.

=Walls of Text=

Add paragraphs/subheaders. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 05:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
:Seconded. One of your paragraphs completely takes up one of my monitor screens. No other paragraph I've witnessed has done this in years. --[[User:Havvy|Havvy]] 01:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
::A lot of the text does need to be cleaned up. Parts of it don't even need to be there. It is on my to do list. Unfortunately, I have had precious little time these past couple of months, and the rest of this month isn't looking good either. I should have a lot more free time once the semester ends. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] 04:24, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

=Updates=

This section will include any major or otherwise noticeable updates. This is so I can keep track of what I've recently done and so those that are using this sourcebook can see what has recently been added. Please do not post in this topic unless you are working on the sourcebook (currently only me). I have had a bad habit of not updating this topic in the past, but will endeavor to break that habit. With that said, here is the most recent update. 

:Several new Vitae Feats added. A new type of feat, Ascended Vitae Feat, has been added. General/Exalted/Vile Feats will be added in the future. I am currently working on making a feat table to make feats easier to find. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] 05:50, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

::Added a section to Chapter 2 - Vampire Rules detailing how Frenzy works. In the same chapter, the Generation table has been slightly adjusted and special abilities that only vampires of a certain Generation have been added beneath said table. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] 17:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

:::Added a few sections to Chapter 8 - How to use this Book. Advice on handling different kinds of encounters with a vampire has been included. More will be added to this chapter in the future, and the sections already present will be expounded upon. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] 05:48, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

=Tight schedule=

I'll be in a specialized training program for the next year that will greatly reduce my free time. I probably won't be doing much work on this sourcebook until half-way through next year. I'll be taking a break, but that doesn't mean I've abandoned this project. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] 02:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

:This is just a reminder that I have not abandoned this project. I still won't be making any edits until at least mid May, but I have manged to make some progress in the scant free time I have had lately. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] ([[User talk:FiddleSticks96|talk]]) 21:38, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

=Libris Vampiricus Review=

''Some will say reviews are reserved for published material, or finished material. Well screw you, this is published on the wiki and it finished enough.''

I don't hate vampires and depending on the mythos I may even like them. Vampires are archetypical villains from the famous Bram Stoker's Dracula to the more obscure Baron Sengir, vampires make great villains. Why do they make such good villain? They are scary, powerful and want to eat you. They also happen to have defined weaknesses players can exploit if able to. Vampires are however not always reserved fro villain, although the same reason they make good villains hinder them on the PC side. They are relatively more powerful than the other PC, but are either useless because of their weaknesses if they are too common or completely unhindered by them. Since many people think vampires are cool, attempt to make them playable were made, today we will take a look on one of this attempt: Libris Vampiricus - The Book of Stolen Blood

This is an expansive sourcebook, so this review will probably be updated regularly. I do not have a high opinion of this sourcebook, for reasons I stated previously. However I will review each chapter in great details.

'''Chapter 1: The Basics'''

The chapter start with this: 

{{quote|This section explains how this overhaul treats vampires as opposed to the traditional view of the undead and procreation. It also adds some role-play fluff that should enhance the vampire experience.}}
    
Well there a lot of traditions out there, nordic vampire were pretty different from modern vampires which are also very different from Dungeon and Dragons's vampires. I assume they are referring as DnD vampires as the traditional one since this sourcebook was published as a (3.5e Sourcebook). Anyway this is the resume of the chaper, so we expect some fluff and not much crunch, anyway let get to it.

The first entry in this chapter is "Vampires" and oh boy, we hit the bad nail right there. First it a 770 word paragraph and it painful to read. The first thing we learn is that vampire feed on blood and lifeforce, which is a little oblivious but that what you expect when you describe the base. Then we learn in details about vampire's eyes and how pureblood have these weird red reptilian eyes. That annoying and should be reserved for an entry about the apparence of vampires, not in the very first entry. Then it start talking about vampire and evil and how vampire are not always evil, while in base DnD they always are evil I can see why the author might want to change it so I let it pass.

{{quote|...they will be infected with a disease known as “Porphyric Hemophilia” (which only humanoids or monstrous humanoids may catch).}} 

Wait Porphyric Hemophilia? That from the Elder Scrolls. This is not an Elder Scroll sourcebook, it a sourcebook about vampires for game in general right?. Second vampirism is a disease now? I know it like that in TES but seeing how dreadful disease work in DnD this is not a wise choice. Well that a bad start, we are only a few sentence in the book and I start finding problems.

{{quote|Despite the fact that vampires are undead, they can still sexually reproduce...}}

Well took the author no time to open that can of worm. The text then go in depth about vampire reproduction and the more vampire you are the less likely you can reproduce. Then it goes into nonsense about how many percent of vampire you have in you and how that make you different, it glance over the weaknesses and commit one of the worst sin of sourcebookmaking: It introduce rules mid text. That is right there extremely annoying, that mena that in order to find a particular rule you need to read that 770 word wall of text? 

{{quote|When someone is born as a vampire, their vampirism percentage will be equal to the combined percentage of their parents divided by 2.}} 

This is intermixed in the very barebone fluff, which is more about how vampire look like than anything. Introduction to vampires should be short and intuitive but so far the text is schizophrenic and keep changing topic. It goes on a bit about vampires of different categories and their youth, unawakened child vampires else. This is a very boring read. 

Next is hunger. It a mostly mundane read, too long for what it should be it possess a single gem of badness:

{{quote|The longer a vampire goes without feeding, the weaker they become.}}

Why is that bad? Well the book seemed to be using TES fluff so far. IN the Elder Scrolls the longer a vampire goes without blood the stronger they become, so this is either directly contradicting the fluff the book is based on OR the author just decided to throw an The Elder Scrolls reference just for the cool. Ergh, the Hunger goes for a while before it stop. Overall it a small read compared to "Vampires" but still feel to long and it repeat itself at least once. There a random unformatted quote at the end of the subchapter.

Then we get The Beast/Inner Vampire. This is where Libris Vampiricus decided to go full World of Darkness. It talk about vampire and their relation with an inner vampire, which pureblood can totally talk to (or at least look like they do) but it not schizophrenia or anything. It also say vampire go emo about it, well shit. This subchapter is short, has no rules intermingled in the text but end with a quote from Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodline, another video game. I think I can see a pattern...

I will condense the next few subchapter since most of them are really short and uninteresting. Bloodline explain that all vampires except pureblood belong to a bloodline and yadaa yadda. Nothing offensive there. The next five chapter simply define various terms, I recognize some of them from World of Darkness and one might be from The Elder Scrolls but it pretty general. Each of them are one or two sentence long.

Then I am confronted with a huge wall of text. This subchapter is about pureblood and it will go one for a while. We are introduced to pureblood like this:   

{{quote|A creature that is 100% vampire. The same as being 100% Elf or 100% Human. The change into vampirism affects many aspects of the victim, DNA included.}}

Okay. Vampire DNA. I don't see why that needed inclusion in the text, DNA seem magical in DnD with beings like half-elemental existing (although none of the more exotic half-X come form sexual reproduction). Anyway the subchapter is very very long and the powerwank begin.

{{quote|Purebloods are as powerful as Demigods, and very often they are more so.}}

Really? Any random pureblood is as strong as fucking demigod? This is very early in the pureblood subchapter and it start wanking their power pretty hard even after. In DnD vampires are suually mid-game threats, highly powerful undead with class levels behind their belt. Their vampiric abilities make them fearsome enemies for the PCs, even more so when you add class level making them a very versatile threat. While they were very strong vampires in dungeon and dragons they are rarely compared with Gods. Vampire BBEGs aren't Godlike because they are special vampire, no they are godlike because they are also near epic characters in addition to being a vampire. The chapter explain vampires can be born as pureblood so whatever. The chapters goes on wanking pureblood even more, some reference to the Elder Scrolls again. It wank that the pureblood can only really die if they commit suicide, which they all the time because they are huge emo and shit. Sigh this chapter got really bad really quick. 

The sourcebook proceed to mix rules and fluff again in Pureblood's Geas, which allow pureblood to control other vampires. What is simple a simple dominate power is made into an expansive 901 word subchapter. Nothing interesting there.

Next we have Noble and Mainstream vampire. Mainstream? Really? Why not just common vampires? Anyway both subchapters are like a thousand times shorter than pureblood. The nobles get two sentence while the common vampire, the one you are expected to face and play... get one sentence. I think I am seeing a bias, the stars of the books seem to be the purebloods aka the least likely to be playable. Then there a subchpater about Dhampir which is weird. Dhamphir are not undead, but can't reproduce at all? While it established earlier that the less vampire you are the more likely you can reproduce? The text also mention Dhampir resent vampires because of that which is stupid. It also nail the dhampir as vampire hunters, which is kinda lame and stereotypical. 

Then we have Category E Vampire, which are just cruel feral vampires. The text is boring but there nothing overly offensive so let move on. Vampire familiar is the next subchapter. It about a particular thrall made by a pureblood, it has more power wanking for the pureblood. It really uninteresting and the title is misleading. 

Net we have Nature of the Vampires, which is again a long ass subchapter. It make reference to the Elder Scrolls, this time more directly than ever. The sourcebook pretty much confirm that the Elder Scroll rapeire creation story is what they are going with. That really annoying, since the book isn't even vague about this, it just treat all of it as facts. Worse yet the sourcebook has ties fluff and mechanics heavily, so in order for a Forgotten Realm DM to use this sourcebook he or she would need to prune most of the fluff, and by extension lots of mechanics. The subchapter end with rules in fluff, nothing new there. Then there three quotes in a row, I guess they must be froma  video game or anime but I won't both bother checking. 

The chapter end with the Nature of Purebloods Subchapter. The chpaters goes on about how pureblood are ten time more hungry, mean and alien than normal vampires. Lots of useless fluff with no real meat, just repeating itself ina endless loop. Then come a small story about a 19 years old pureblood named Maria, without experience she is already demigod level of power and she is totally feared by other hundred years old vampires and totally chaotic good despite acting like a real monster in the story. The stoy isn't overly bad, but it just hammer the pureblood as psychologically unstable overwanked bloodsuckers. 

Overall this chapter is a very long boring read. This is supposed to cover the basic but  it does not. There no reference to say a vampire skin color, how they deal with going in adventure or anything worthy of note. It make no ties in with any DnD mythology whatsoever. This is supposed to be the fluff chapter and it nearly useless, it got way more mechanic than a fluff chapter should and love to wank vampires, especially pureblood and refer to a nonexistent price they need to pay for power. Or maybe it was referring to the massive LA I am expecting from the mechanics? 

Libris Vampiricus - The Book of Stolen Blood bear it name well, this sourcebook steal blood from other works of fiction. The entire meat of it fluff is either ripped straight from The Elder Scrolls or World of Darkness and made into some unholy chimera begging to be put down. Tune in next time for the next chapter, where I will be forced to read through more walls of text. The kicker? It going to be actual rules (I expect lot of fluff intermingled in the rules). --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 20:29, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

= The Completeness of this Book =

Ok, so I'm going to keep this first one short since I'm tired and don't want to say something stupid or arrogant due to my brain's filter having shut down 3 hours ago.

I will make this very clear. Not a single chapter in this book is complete. Especially the things about the basics (which is a recent addition to the book).  I haven't even made an attempt to make things pretty yet. This is a work in progress, so there are wrinkles to work out. This book is about half way done, so I don't see any reason why to assume that things won't look ugly right now. I have also had zero time to do anything this past year. I didn't even bother to try and work on this during that time. I am now back in my own country, really tired, and don't have the energy to start working on this again right away.

Convoluted Mess: One of this biggest things on my to-do list for this book is to slash and burn the piles of paragraphs and redo the way the chapters are written to make things easy to find and read (and short to read, although reading a book rarely takes a short amount of time). Even I go insane trying to find stuff right now, and I wrote it. This is the first time I've ever done anything like this, and I had no experience whatsoever with formatting things for wiki sites when I started. I've learned a lot since then (I even had to take a grammar class (that is another story) about a year after I started this book). I am well aware that as things are presented, it is a serious problem. As far as the sheer amount things in this book, in my attempt to cater to those who barely want to know what their own character's background story is to those who want to roleplay what they ate for lunch, things got really messy. I cared more about getting the general idea into the chapters before I cleaned things up.

CR/LA/Balance: I barely understand the relationship of CR and LA as is. I've read the rules for them many times and LA doesn't make any sense to me. CR makes sense only until the PCs get a modified CR and then I don't know what to do with them without slapping on an LA. I want to work around it but haven't found a fully satisfying solution yet. Things need to be nerfed or otherwise made to take longer to gain access to (as far as abilities go). As always, I am open to advice/suggestions.

Purebloods: I added Purebloods more for kicks than anything, but epic rules exist and I have seen campaigns where the party went over level 60. The fact that I went overboard even for the sake of going overboard is not lost to me. I have read the grievances above and will slash and burn fluff related to Purebloods, but don't take a Mary Sue monster so seriously.

Leeching from other Sources: I really don't know what to say here. I remember saying that this was going to be obvious and that I didn't care. I'm not trying to do something original, I'm trying to make an extensive sourcebook related to all things vampire. Nobody cares if someone uses Book of Exalted Deeds, Defenders of the Faith, AND Complete Divine, so why does pulling from many sources even matter?

If you feel compelled to rate this sourcebook, don't forget that this is isn't a completed work. I don't even particularly care about having a good rating. This could be torn from this wiki but that wouldn't prevent me from continuing my work or posting it elsewhere. I don't know if that is a dangerous thing to say as far as my standing on this wiki goes, but I didn't start this for ratings. So this turned out to be a massive post. If I said anything stupid or arrogant, I apologize. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] ([[User talk:FiddleSticks96|talk]]) 05:05, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

== Poll for this Book's Location ==

The only reason why I requested to move this sourcebook from my sandbox to the sourcebook section was because it had become so massive that I literally could not update the page. Arranging it this way made things easier to work with so it made sense to move it here. As it stands, this sourcebook is far from finished and I can only do so much so fast without become a hermit. I prize the opinions of others, as they give me perspectives and conclusions I would otherwise not have come to. With that said, the most common perspective of this sourcebook is its incompleteness and convolutedness, so I am requesting the opinion of all whom it may concern. The question is simple.

Should I remove this sourcebook from this wiki (or maybe getting the links moved to my sandbox) until such a time as it is more presentable.

The Pros: There won't be unpresentable work in the sourcebook section of this wiki, thus negating any bad image this sourcebook might reflect upon this wiki, its owners, and its community.

The Cons: I won't get to hear the opinions/advice/perspectives of others, thus furthering this sourcebook's single, if skewed, perspective. Mine.

Please post your thoughts below. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] ([[User talk:FiddleSticks96|talk]]) 05:18, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

:You had as many pages in your sandbox as you do now, and it was still slow? --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 17:41, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

::Sandbox pages are not functionally different than regular pages. You can have subpages of sandbox pages just like you have here, the page name is just a bit longer. Sandbox pages are less likely to generate comments than regular pages, but you seem to have a bunch of comments to work through already anyway so I wouldn't worry about that part for a while (or just move it back after they've been dealt with). 

::In any event, this is actually overdue for a CommOpp move, so I need to sandbox it soon unless you'd prefer it deleted for now. I think deletion is a bit extreme though. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  17:58, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

:::The entire sourcebook was one sandbox page. Looking back at my post it was really stupid to think that I couldn't have more than one page (like it is organized now), but again, I was very tired last night when I posted that. I don't know what a CommOpp move is, but I assume it has something to do with moving the sourcebook to another location. I would rather keep it on the wiki site, since that lets me preview pages and figure out how to format things correctly. I don't know how I would go about moving the links to my sandbox. I assume copy and paste will do the job but I only have a basic understanding of wiki formatting. I have a sandbox page named "Vampire". If the links to each chapter could be moved to that page that would be helpful. I have a more updated version of this book on my computer, so don't freak out if something gets lost. I still have no intention of renewing work on this book again for at least a week. I have been away from home for too long and would like to spend time with my family. [[User:FiddleSticks96|FiddleSticks96]] ([[User talk:FiddleSticks96|talk]]) 18:23, 18 May 2013 (UTC)