View source for User talk:Luigifan18/Mogeko Snatcher (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)

== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Eiji-kun
|rating=oppose
|reason=As the race, so too goes the paragon class.  I will commend you on at least segregating the previous tentacle monstrosity to an alternate class feature (even though you should have burned it with fire, expect displease to flow over there too).  So why the oppose?  Well, there are still many issues, but much of it ties right into the race itself.  And some more.  It was enough to turn a dislike into an oppose.

Fun fact.  So, because I like to know what I'm talking about when criticizing something I watched those videos.  Watched a good lot of them.  You know what I never saw?  Tentacle monsters.  Oh, yes, there was one, but it was apparently unrelated to the king as was just some random monster working for Mogo-tan the cosplayer.  So what's all this about this being the paragon class of the king?  The class even shows his transformed state.  It's not a tentacle monster.  It appears to be shitty O2 from Kirby.  So, yeah.  I have no idea where the hell tentacle monsters got involved in the story of shitty rape cats.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Undead Knave
|rating=oppose
|reason=There are still so many problems I don't know where to start.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=oppose
|block=
|reason=There is still all the problems the others have pointed out. The fact Everlasting Dream is gone is good, bit not enough.‡}}
{{Rating |rater=Ghostwheel
|rating=oppose
|reason=Even ignoring flavor, abduction is terribly bad. The other abilities seem to be a mish-mash without any real direction or cohesion.
}}

Mish-mash?!? The abilities are all oriented towards making the Mogeko Snatcher a better hunter and kidnapper. The scrying is there in order to find and select prey in the first place, and the skill bonuses help the Mogeko Snatcher hunt its prey down, then throw it off-balance once it catches up to it. And I'm not sure what your problems with ''Abduction'' are. It has some pretty significant limitations, and while the Mogeko Snatcher does remove some of those limitations, I think it does so at a pretty level-appropriate rate, considering that the minimum level to start the racial paragon class is 5. And even then, not abiding by the usual limitations still makes ''Abduction'' easier to resist. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 16:02, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

:Hey, uh, with Everlasting Dream gone, what else am I supposed to change to fix the ratings? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 04:59, 30 November 2017 (MST)

::Well at least from me, a lot of these issues are baked into the race itself.  So of course the paragon class which is built upon it will remain equally if not moreso borked. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 15:11, 30 November 2017 (MST)

==You Realize...== 

that you need to make sure it cleaned before re-upload it, otherwise it WILL get deleted again. It still based around the whole abduction mechanics and still has the tentacle rape, albeit not explicitly. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 22:43, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

:I reflavored the Mogekos as kidnapping fanatics rather than explicitly rapists, and the same goes for the Mogeko Snatcher; it's only a rapist if you choose to interpret it that way. Individual Mogeko Snatchers may or may not be rapists (King mogeko's ''definitely'' a rapist, but the jury's out on Moge-ko (there are a few hints that she is indeed a rapist, but it's much more heavily implied that she just plain loves torturing people), and other Mogeko Snatchers' rapist qualifications are up to the DMs or players who create them). There are reasons to kidnap someone other than wanting to rape them. Indeed, I'm pretty sure most kidnappers do it for the ransom money.
:The genius thing about the tentacle constriction is that I left out the details on how it works. It ''can'' be tentacle rape, if you want to treat it that way, but it can just as easily be some sort of special slime or just sheer unpleasantness. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:54, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

::'''(Eldritch signs begin to stir.  Darkness rises.  The elder evil signs of the coming of Eiji have begun to appear... DOOM.)''' -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 08:15, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

:::Okay, this ''is'' a bit bitter. I think the first two sentences are still problematic, but beyond that nothing on the page jumps out at me as ''explicitly'' terrible.

:::In my opinion, that's still not good enough. Others might or might not agree, but let me try to give an example demonstrating why I, for one, still find this offensive.

:::Imagine a class built around these concepts:
:::*'''Anonymity.''' The class can operate without their specific identity being known.
:::*'''Fear.''' They have an intimidating appearance.
:::*'''Coordinated effort.''' They work together in groups to accomplish their goals and attack their enemies.
:::You might imagine Anonymous, or Imperial storm troopers, or the Power Rangers. You can apply the class validly to a wide array of characters. This broadness makes a certain levity acceptable -- there is no obligation to assign any gravity to something so generic, because it doesn't explicitly evoke any sensitive subject. Who cares if I crack a joke, or if I write it with a flat and emotionless manner? It's just some random faceless group-fighting scary guy.

:::Now imagine that the class is called "Klansman".

:::Suddenly it's something deadly serious. Suddenly we have a very specific context for the anonymity, fear, and group effort. Suddenly it is not okay to have a lighthearted or flat tone when writing the class. There's an ''obligation'' to make it grim and dark, because if the author isn't explicitly giving a sense that you are ''supposed'' to be uncomfortable with it, then it comes across as a bad joke.

:::That is what you've done here. By attaching it to Mogeko canon, you've put this content in the context of rape, whether the word appears on the page or not. And the page simply does not treat the topic with the respect that it warrants. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 20:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

::::The Mogekos were always supposed to strike a fine balance between horror and humor, because that's what <u>Mogeko Castle</u> itself does. You're supposed to be made very uncomfortable and deeply disturbed by the Mogekos, but at the same time, you're supposed to laugh at their ridiculous antics; the game doesn't get completely serious until Floor 6, when King mogeko makes his appearance (and before then, the scenes with Moge-ko in them are always completely serious as well). Overall, <u>Mogeko Castle</u> feels like a very black comedy, but the point is, you're supposed to be disgusted by the Mogekos. Unfortunately, due in part to my Asperger's, I'm not exactly good with the concept of "subtlety"... ^_^; --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:42, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::I can relate -- I had the same diagnosis. But even for the most socially adept, black comedy is a hard target to hit. If you struggle to hit that mark, then it's probably best not to try when dealing with themes ''this'' dark. IMO, you should either go completely serious and grim, or separate this class from its inspiration. (The latter is probably easier.) Anything else is pretty much invariably going to come off as being in very poor taste.

:::::It might also help to make this a monster or an NPC class. The implication that "you too can be an expert rapist!" will be weaker when it's not targeted at players. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 23:18, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::I didn't really intend for the Mogeko Snatcher to be aimed at PCs, but it's technically a racial paragon class, as it's aimed at amplifying the natural strengths of a Mogeko. It also has skill requirements, so it skirts the line between that and a prestige class. In any case, calling it an NPC class doesn't really encapsulate what it is. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:24, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::: In that case, it should really be a unique monster. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 05:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::::''THIS.  A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.''  Oh, and '''(The elder sign grows.  You feel your keyboard melt under your fingers.  Eiji is coming...)''' -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 05:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::Yeah, what you're looking for there is a monster. The thousand tiny variations introduced by spreading abilities across a class progression is really only useful for player characters. When you want to vary power in encounters, you give or take some hit dice; you add or remove an ability or two; you tweak a size category. Laboriously going through a detailed level-up process just adds an unnecessary amount of work for a DM who wishes to use the material. This is why the classes which ''are'' designed for NPCs are so [[Warrior (3.5e NPC Class)|mind]]-[[Partisan (3.5e NPC Class)|numbingly]] [[Orphan (3.5e NPC Class)|simple]] -- it makes it easy to build and vary characters.

:::::::::Besides that, from the sound of it, most of the Mogeko were pretty much identical in capabilities anyway. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 12:53, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::::::Let's not lose focus though on the core problem. You've made Rapist (3.5e Class) and the article shows no awareness that this is a seriously grim thing to write. It's crass and insensitive. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 13:00, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::::What part of "black comedy" is hard to understand? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 19:31, 11 November 2017 (MST)

==Mechanics==

The flavor was touched upon by other people, and I still agree 150% with them, and do not think for a second that I'm letting the flavor part go. Even though this class deals with a delicate subject matter in a way that leaves a lot of people uncomfortable, that is no excuse for bad mechanics. We will go in reverse, unlike how it is typically done, so we will give a go to the capstone at first. No, in fact, let's just review the last abilities.

'''Everlasting Dream:''' First off, DR 25 is total BS. Make it equal to character level. I don't get why it gets a stance, a powerful one at that. It gets tons of tentacles and improved grab, OK. It becomes slow as shit. Alright... oh, I see the tentacle naughtiness mechanics are back, although sterilized. 

'''Everlasting Dream Part Deux:''' It starts off with some weird slam attack nonsense, okay. Then it inflicts madness for some reason, why? Are they like, uploading eldritch knowledge directly in the mind of the creature they grapple? Because otherwise it makes no sense; madness is not trauma. Oh well, moving on. Then there's a fort save with a '''MASSIVE''' DC, like that's higher than level 9 spells and it's based off a stat they get a +8 bonus to just by transforming. What, they get half their HD to that? That's usually to make up for the lack of spell levels on abilities! Now at 15, that's DC 31 BASE (count +4 con mod), and that's HUGE. You are looking at DC 40 most of the time, even with a single tentacle. Alright alright, now what it does?

Nauseated... for 24 hours? That's a joke, right? That's a save or die, since if they fail, they won't be able to escape the grapple anymore. More like nat 20 or die given the fuckhuge DC. Oh, there's also a will save... same DC... that's bad. Alright, what does it do? Frightened... for a week? Do you realize how insane this is!? Because here is what being frightened does:

{{quote
|A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear. 
|orig=[[SRD:Frightened|Frightened]]
|src=SRD
}}

It will attempt fleeing, for a week. A week! I don't even know how that works!

: '''Verdict:''' Everlasting Dream is completely borked. Also, seriously, don't try to put mechanics for tentacle rape in there please. 

: '''Suggestion:''' Scrap ability. Rewrite.

I do not think this should be a class. I agree with Surgo here, this looks like it should be a unique monster. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 14:38, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:The DC isn't ''that'' massive. The DC 20 is simply accounting for the 10 levels in Mogeko Snatcher, as 10 is its maximum level. It's just 10+10. The ½ level part? ''Mogeko Snatcher levels aren't included in that''. Really, it's calculated the same way as a prestige class's class ability. Also, don't forget that a Mogeko Snatcher has to be a Mogeko, which has a &minus;2 racial penalty to [[Constitution]] by default.

:The Everlasting Dream feature is based on King mogeko's abomination form. ''Iron Flesh Sheathe'' is there because I wanted to include a mechanic to reflect how Defect Mogeko was beaten; he couldn't pull the swords out after stabbing King mogeko, leaving him wide open to a pummeling.

:I intentionally left it ambiguous just how the effects of the grappling are inflicted, to leave DMs free to come up with something other than tentacle rape. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 18:29, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:: I misread, still 10 should be 20 levels not 10. usually it's 10 + ½ HD (so you get +5 from your level, not +10) + relevant ability mod. A 9th level spell is 19 + relevant ability score mod, so the DC of everlasting dream is higher by default. Still, the debilitating status effects last for far too long, and I see no reason to add madness to that as well. 

::As for madness, here is a concern of mine: you see, about using madness, while I like stuff using it, you need to take in consideration that it is a very optional rule. I made monsters, prestige classes, feats, and spells based around the system, but I did not adapt any existing material to it. Not every game will use dark insight and madness, but there is no reason to be a Black Healer or a Witness of the Old God in such a game. Materials integrating madness and dark insight are simply not readily usable in games not using those rules, and not all games will.  

::Right now, it's way too strong, you become a nearly invincible grapple machine that inflict people with nigh impossible saving throws and make people go insane. Although all of this gave me an idea... --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 19:06, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:::That's kind of the point. Defect Mogeko almost beat King mogeko, but then he used Everlasting Dream and it all went downhill from there. And Mogeko Snatcher requires 8 ranks <s>[[SRD:Listen Skill|in 3]] [[SRD:Spot Skill|separate]] [[SRD:Survival Skill|skills]]</s> [[SRD:Listen Skill|three]] [[Scent (3.5e Skill)|out]] [[SRD:Search Skill|of]] [[SRD:Spot Skill|five]] [[SRD:Survival Skill|skills]], making it level 5 minimum &mdash; often higher in practice, seeing as Mogekos have a &minus;4 racial penalty to [[Intelligence]] and therefore have their skill points shot to hell. At character level 15, damage reduction 25 is far from insurmountable &mdash; if all else fails, you can spam [[SRD:Magic Missile|''magic missile'']] and stuff like that.

:::Also, the Mogeko Snatcher in Everlasting Dream form kind of ''is'' an eldritch abomination. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 20:16, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:::: Loyalty to the source material is no excuse. The problem with everlasting dream is not just the DR, which is 10 + character level when you get it. It is a huge buff, size cat increase, +8 str/con, and 7 tentacles attack is already pretty damn good. Then you get DR 25 with magic, silver, AND good, which is really really hard to surmount, especially for a rogue or a volley archer. Then the 7 tentacles have improved grab and double reach, which is real crazy if you increase your size cat again. Then you get to say "Fuck you, you die" to anything you grapple. Then you get all [[SRD:Abomination|this]]. Telepathy 1000 ft., blindsight 500 ft. all of your spell-like abilities are now 20th level, epic feat selection, constant non-detection, immunities, resistances, high [[SRD:Spell Resistance|spell resistance]], [[SRD:True Seeing|''true seeing'']] at will. You literally get two laundry list of abilities, and if I'm not mistaken in the source material (I might), it was defeated by a little girl. Like seriously, most of that shit wouldn't be kosher at level 20, never mind 15! --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 20:26, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

::::: Agree with Lez here. Add onto that, that at level 15, a rogue is doing 4 attacks per round, each attack doing around 10d6 damage, averaging to 35. That's supposed to be great damage from one of the strongest strikers in the game when they get off their strongest attacks, and instead of doing 140 damage, all this creature takes is 40... if all attacks hit. Honestly, 3.5 did well when it reduced DR from around 20 max to around 10 max. If you want massive DR 10 is more than enough, else even something like a [[SRD:Twelve-Headed_Hydra|12-headed hydra]] (which is a few CR lower, but SHOULD still be able to do SOMETHING) has no chance of damaging it at all.
::::: tl;dr: Change DR to 10 static. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 21:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::<nowiki>*</nowiki>looks up abomination subtype* '''''Holy crap!!!''''' That is... erk... much, ''much'' stronger than I thought it was. I'll tweak Everlasting Dream so that the Mogeko Snatcher is treated as having the abomination subtype (so, for instance, it's immune to [[Mindbreak (3.5e Variant Rule)|mindbreak]]) without actually having abomination traits, or at least having them in an altered, less "holy crap that's an epic character what is this s*** doing on someone at level 15" form. I think I could also tone down the duration of the status effects. The thing to keep in mind, however, is that you only get to stay in abomination form for 1 round per character level, once per day, and when you're forced out of it, you become fatigued. That's why the buffs are so huge; they're only relevant for a tiny portion of a day. (So, I think they're roughly equal in power to [[Mogeko Sage (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)#Savior of the Species|+4 bonuses to everything that are active all the time]].)

::::::Also, I don't think it's going to be ''too'' difficult for a level 15 character to get their hands on a weapon that's magic, silver, and good. By this point in the game, equipment is expected to be pretty damn impressive.

::::::Yonaka never defeated King mogeko. She got the hell away from him while Nega-Mogeko distracted him. Or, if you're referring to the Neutral Ending, I guess King mogeko had already used Everlasting Dream that day, so he couldn't use it again. That, and Yonaka apparently has a surprisingly high Strength score, and King mogeko, like the rest of his race, has a kind of bad Constitution score. Combine that with the fact that Yonaka was basically crushing his ''face'', which would most likely qualify as a critical hit, and... look, even high-level characters can fail their Fortitude saves against massive damage, okay? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:20, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::: If you want this to remain a PC class at High level... you're going to have to give up on remaining as close as possible to the source material. Others have said it before. In the game it wasn't a PC-type character. It was a monster. Make it a monster if you want to have all these weird things. On top of that, monsters aren't PCs. This is a PC class. A PC is meant to use it. Monsters don't tend to get good + silver + magic weapons every day. So that point is largely irrelevant. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 22:37, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::::Well, technically speaking, abominations are not immune to mindbreak (some probably would be, though), given the only blanket immunity I gave was to mindless creatures. That, and abominations predate mindbreak by years. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 22:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::Check Everlasting Dream again, I heavily reworked it so that it's not as strong (though it does gain strength over several levels). Namely, the DR isn't too severely impenetrable at character level 15 (it's now DR 15/silver), gains more requirements to bypass it at higher levels, and doesn't get to utterly absurd levels until the Mogeko Snatcher is at an utterly absurd level. (Honestly, would it be ''that'' hard for a level 50 character to overcome DR 50?)

:::::::::In addition, the only abomination trait Mogeko Snatchers have in abomination form to start off is immunity to mindbreak (which doesn't do squat if mindbreak isn't part of the campaign). It doesn't become a real abomination until character level 30, and even then, it only gets to actually ''be'' an abomination for one round per character level per day, not 24\7.

:::::::::Speaking of mindbreak not being part of the campaign, I explicitly moved the dark insight and mindbreak abilities off to the side and included a clause that they're only relevant if dark insight and madness are part of the campaign. While I was at it, I recalibrated the madness infliction so that it's not always on. Now, if the Mogeko Snatcher wants to inflict madness to a creature it has pinned, it has to reduce its damage output in the process. (I was originally going to make it so that the Mogeko Snatcher did ''no'' damage while inflicting madness, but I wasn't willing to raise the mindbreak per tentacle &mdash; 10 madness per round (i.e. 5 tentacles grappling a single creature inflicting madness, leaving those tentacles unable to attack other creatures) is huge in and of itself, and I didn't want to have that figure become even higher &mdash; and realized that without the damage, inflicting madness was a total trap option against any creature without an absolute mountain of maximum hp and an insultingly low Wisdom score and/or crazy-high amount of dark insight.)

:::::::::Speaking of the tentacles, I cut those down to one tentacle per 3 character levels, rather than 2. So now a 15th-level Mogeko Snatcher has 5 tentacles rather than 7, and a 20th-level Mogeko Snatcher has 6 tentacles instead of 10. I also sharply cut down the durations of the negative conditions; now they're both 1 hour if the saves are failed horribly, and 1 minute if the saves are failed mildly. I don't know how clear I made it, but I always had it so that the Will save against fright isn't even necessary unless the Fortitude save against nausea is failed first. I did indirectly make that bit a little more clear when writing up the new madness infliction rules.

:::::::::So, yeah, hopefully Everlasting Dream is more reasonably powerful now. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 23:11, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::: How are the majority of monsters supposed to have silver weapons when facing this when the majority of monsters by far concentrate on natural attacks? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 23:24, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::::PCs don't have to always be fighting monsters, you know. They can fight NPCs, too.

:::::::::::Even if we discount NPCs, a whole lot of monsters can do much more than 15 damage with a single attack (for example, any CR 15 true dragon worth its salt could do at least somewhere in the range of 3d6+massive Strength bonus with one of its claws &mdash; for a physically oriented dragon, that number would be much higher). For the monsters that don't have such immense brute strength, I'm pretty sure that spells automatically bypass DR unless their description explicitly says that they don't (due to emulating or enhancing physical attacks). Heck, even spells delivered via a melee touch attack (like, say, [[SRD:Vampiric Touch|''vampiric touch'']] or [[SRD:Shocking Grasp|''shocking grasp'']]) bypass DR more often than not. A ''lot'' of monsters with 15+ CR have some sort of spell-like ability. Remember that the Mogeko Snatcher doesn't actually gain the abomination subtype and the traits that come with it (like, say, fire resistance) until they reach character level 30. Until then, a Mogeko Snatcher in abomination form is a pseudo-abomination &mdash; treated as though it has the subtype without having any of the traits &mdash; which, in practice, would mostly cause it to take extra damage from attacks that do extra damage to abominations.

:::::::::::There are also monsters that use manufactured weapons just like PCs do, without necessarily qualifying as NPCs (many outsiders, such as angels, demons, and devils, wield manufactured weapons of some sort, and that goes double for the human-shaped ones). For instance, [[SRD:Kolyarut|kolyaruts]] are known to wield +2 longswords by default; it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for a kolyarut hunting a Mogeko Snatcher to bring a silver longsword instead, especially considering that kolyaruts are known to research their targets in advance. And there are also monsters whose natural weapons count as being made of some sort of material; heck, a high-level monk's unarmed strikes count as adamantine, and that's a PC we're talking about! I would presume that if someone made a golem out of silver, its slam attacks would count as silver weapons.

:::::::::::Also, isn't it the DM's job to make sure that the PCs' opponents are a credible threat to them? If the DM forgets about what bypasses a PC's damage reduction, then the DM is screwing up.

:::::::::::If it's ''really'' a problem, I could drop the DR down to ½ the Mogeko Snatcher's character level. However, I want it to be really high &mdash; ''much'' higher than the damage reduction of a [[SRD:Barbarian|barbarian]] &mdash; because it's actually ''possible'' to bypass without resorting to something that completely ignores damage reduction (like, say, a [[SRD:Fireball|''fireball'']], or any blast spell, really), and, more importantly, it's '''''temporary'''''. Abomination form can only be activated once per day, and it only lasts for one round per character level. And when it's over, it renders the Mogeko Snatcher [[SRD:Fatigued|fatigued]], leaving it vulnerable. The relatively brief duration and vulnerability at the end justify making the DR difficult to overcome; it needs to have an effect that's not merely noticeable, but ''effective'' while it lasts. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:03, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::::::::I'm also considering dropping the base DCs of the Everlasting Dream abilities by 2, as the formula I used to determine them are based on an epic DC formula (see page 206 of the <u>Dungeon Master's Guide</u>; it's the formula for determining the DC of a prestige class's class abilities, only with levels in other classes substituted for levels beyond 10th, since Mogeko Snatcher, being a racial paragon class rather than a prestige class, can't actually be advanced to levels beyond 10th). Since Mogeko Snatcher requires a minimum character level of 5th to qualify, I was thinking of basically taking the first five non-Mogeko Snatcher levels out of the DC calculation, to make the DC more in line with the DC of a 10th-level prestige class's class feature (and progressing from there as additional character levels are taken). I may also decide to have levels before character level 21st not count &mdash; again, to more closely emulate the prestige class progression formula I'm mimicking. Are either of those good ideas? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:17, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

{{ri}}

: I invite you to calculate the % of damage reduced by the current DR by a CR 15ish dragon hitting on all of its attacks, assuming average damage on each attack. I think you'd be surprised just by how much it goes down. And having a PC that requires very specific things to counter is a mark of VH-level territory, and puts an onus on the DM to make the player feel bad ("You suddenly face nothing but silver-wielding, silver-toothed, silver-clawed monsters! Or all abilities that target you will be energy-based damage! Enjoy your lack of class ability now!") I have absolutely no goodwill towards "the DM can fix it by building encounters correctly" for homebrew. It just makes more work for the DM, and makes either the DM feel sad (they can't damage a target well), makes other players feel sad (monster damage had to be ramped up in order to deal with higher DR, and they suffer for it), or the player sad (DM uses the counter, suddenly you lack that class ability. And yes, either straight DR 10 or 1/2 character level (the former probably better) would work much better IMO. 
: But again, you have only ONE example of a Mogeko King/Snatcher/Whatever, and it's a boss-ish monster from what I understand. Why is this not a monster rather than a PC class? Should PCs become this? Or even multiple PCs, if for example, one is a Sorcerer and the other a Ranger? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 00:25, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

:: As I pointed out, the abomination subtype here is useless. If you want immunity to mindbreak (which is meaningless, since if you acquired enough madness to mindbreak while in your abomination form you will mindbreak as as soon as you return to your normal form) you need to give it to them as a trait, since I never gave any blanket immunities to mindbreak, with the exception of mindless creatures. Even at epic level, the abomination subtype should never given to a PC anyway, it clearly not made for PCs.

:: As for inflicting madness, 10 per turn is insane, you will keep most creature with dark insight in a constant daze/mindbreak cycle. See [[Phynasm, Hungering Horror (3.5e Monster)|Phynasm]] as an example, if you can inflict more madness than an epic creature then perhaps you inflict too much madness. Not that it matter, the nausea should kill anyone you grapple anyway. Also more important than any of this:

:: '''SAVE DC IS STILL BORKED.'''

:: It DC 10 +1/2 HD + Relevant Ability Mod. There is no reason it should be otherwise, especially with a save or lose ability. Sometime there variation with 1/2 class level, which isn't 10 it 5. The Mogeko Snatcher receiver +5 DC from apparently nowhere, which is HUGE. It 1/4th of an entire RNG, it an extra 25% chance of failure. A sample Nogeko Snatcher 10 that start with 14 [[constitution]] (so 12), with an item of Con +4 (so 16), transformed (so 24) has a save DC of 29 (20 Base, +2 Other HD, +7 Con). In comparison a 15th level wizard casting a spell from a school she has spell focus and greater spell focus in , with starting Int of 18 (with racial bonus so 20), a +4 item of Int casting a 8th level spell has a DC of 27 (10 Base + Spell Level + 7 +2 Feats). And before you go "2 points isn't that high", that wizard invested two feats, a 18 in an ability score and it racial bonus to that DC. If it cast a 8th elvel spell outside of it school it drop to 25, and lower level spells will have a lower DC. 

:: How many replies we have now in this thread, and we are only talking about a single ability. Here is how I would do it: "A 10th level Mogeko Snatcher may use [[SRD:Form of Doom|form of doom]] as a psi-like ability at will/X time per day/whatever." Same result pretty much, way less problematic. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 21:16, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

:::By that logic, you could say that the save DC of every class ability of every prestige class ever is borked, as the formula uses the prestige class's class level as is instead of cutting it in half to compensate for prestige classes being unavailable at level 1. However, only the pre-epic levels get this accelerated progression; only the first 10 levels in a prestige class are counted, and after that, it takes 2 class levels to raise the save DC by 1, as normal. I simply used a modified version of the formula, and I modified it because there ''is'' no 11th level in Mogeko Snatcher, not even for epic characters. As previously stated, I have considered lowering the save DC by 2 to take the first 5 non-Mogeko Snatcher levels out of the formula, considering that one doesn't qualify for the class until level 5. I could make it so that the first 10 levels in non-Mogeko Snatcher classes don't count to make it more accurate by keeping the "+1 DC per 2 levels" exclusive to epic levels. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

:::Also, if you're inflicting 10 madness per round, you are devoting 5 tentacles to pinning a single creature. Therefore, you cannot use those tentacles to make slam attacks against other creatures. You are effectively sacrificing 5 attacks per round, on top of the fact that you are already hindering your ability to fight other creatures by being involved in a grapple in the first place. And I'm pretty sure that immunity to mindbreak means that you can't gain madness, period. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 22:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

::::As far as I know, only some prestige class use this formula, and it largely fell out of favor by the time ToB happened. Also, in ALL those cases it never counted the class level from any other classes. Either take the old obsolete prestige class DC pie, or the normal DC pie. Don't mash them together, it's one or the other. 

::::Madness is usually either passive, or if activated, inflicted on multiple creatures. The false priest's ability afflicts each creature who can hear its chime, Phynasm inflicts it both passively and actively, Amaedegon the Old God will inflict it passively. There are a few exceptions, like some of the dark insight spells. As the writer of the subsystem, I can tell you that 10 madness is too much at CR 15, you will mindbreak most if not all creatures in two rounds. Yes, you devoted your whole turn to it, and you are a sucker for that. Also, I still don't get the flavor behind how the snatcher inflicts madness, or why he becomes immune to it. Flavor is mutable, so I don't give much of a shit. Also, as the writer of the subsystem I can tell you:

:::: Abominations aren't immune to mindbreak, there is no blanket immunity except for mindless things and maybe Elder Evils. Immunity to mindbreak only protects you against mindbreak; you still acquire madness, but it does nothing. Otherwise, immune creatures couldn't cast many dark insight spells. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 22:25, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

:::::Fun fact; epic D&D from WotC is borked and a bad thing to rely on.  Notably, the assassin's save DC is kind of messed up, being both too high and too low depending on when you can get up.  It scales weirdly.  Interestingly enough, I haven't seen it used ever again, all subsequent PrCs that have scaling DCs all use the 10 + 1/2 + modifier formula.

:::::Point is, you probably shouldn't rely on an appeal to authority on this one, WotC isn't exactly reliable all the time.  I also recommend 10 + 1/2 character level + modifier. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 22:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

::::::Eh, fine, I'll use [[SRD:Form of Doom|''Form of Doom'']] and change Everlasting Dream to [[Everlasting Dream (3.5e Alternate Class Feature)|an alternate class feature]]. Before you say that there's no reason not to take Everlasting Dream, keep in mind that Everlasting Dream will remain usable only once a day and keep the "[[SRD:Fatigued|fatigued]] afterwards" downside, while ''Form of Doom'' will be usable several times per day depending on character level and won't leave the Mogeko Snatcher weakened afterwards. I'll also make Everlasting Dream reduce a character's [[Wisdom]] by 4, '''permanently and irrevocably''', for taking it rather than ''Form of Doom''. Mogeko Snatchers care a lot about Wisdom, as it enhances their most vital skills ([[SRD:Listen Skill|Listen]], [[Scent (3.5e Skill)|Scent]], [[SRD:Spot|Spot]], and [[SRD:Survival|Survival]]). Furthermore, the best entryway class for the Mogeko Snatcher is the [[SRD:Ranger|ranger]], due to it having enough skill points to offset a Mogeko's Intelligence penalty and having the required skills as class skills, not to mention that Mogeko Snatcher levels advance ranger spellcasting... but ranger spellcasting is dependent on Wisdom. So taking a permanent reduction to Wisdom becomes a really, really steep price. Everlasting Dream is certainly powerful, but it's only usable once per day. And if your enemies are smart, they'll run the hell away when you use Everlasting Dream, then come back when it's worn off and beat the snot out of you while you're fatigued. (I probably should have brought that up earlier...)

::::::One more thing. From what I understand of the concept, the whole point of a racial paragon class is for a given race to reach its full potential. Therefore, it needs to build upon what the race can do, augment its strengths, and maybe patch up a few weaknesses. I designed the Mogeko Snatcher and Mogeko Sage classes with that goal in mind; the Mogeko Snatcher focuses on the hunting and kidnapping skills and abilities (scent, Search, Spot, Listen, ''Abduction'', scrying), while the Mogeko Sage focuses on the insightful characteristics (divination abilities, no Intelligence penalty). The Mogeko Snatcher gets skill bonuses because they help it to fulfill its role &mdash; a hunter and kidnapper, and a generally superior Mogeko. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 21:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)