Talk:Creation Ex Xeno (3.5e Feat)

I usually suck at balancing, so here's a question

Is this overpowered? I know that any given Xeno could use it to make money, but aside from that, is it beyond most feats? I did some math, and my first draft of it was insane(you used GP instead of SP on the craft checks, resulting in being able to make a masterwork item or even powerful weapons in a instant), but I think it's somewhat balanced now. I could be very wrong, though, but then again, with the wish economy, this feels rather minor, since you can't make a magic item. But it can make a catapult and a few shots if you spend enough. That's another thing, does the 5GP per Bio-Energy spent seem balanced? Maybe more per point? And the Bio-Energy Drain multiplier effect, too much, maybe? In any case, I wish for input, since this is a feat I wish to see used by more then just me.--YX33A 19:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

So as it is, an ordinary CON 18 character can make 180 GP (160 GP by spending 4 points and draining 3, then 20 GP by spending 1 point and draining 3) of stuff each hour? That's very good for a level 1 character; it probably stops being good at about level 5 or so. A level 12 character with Increased Biocapacity to boost their Bio-Energy pool and 26 Constitution will be able to make 93600 GP (81920 GP by spending 12 points and draining 3, then 10240 GP by spending 9 points and draining 3, then 1280 GP by spending 6 points and draining 3, then 160 GP by spending 3 points and draining 3) of stuff each hour, which is still quite good, but not ridiculously excessive because it's just nonmagical stuff. Unless you meant that the Drain doubling would be on top of the normal doubling, in which case you should multiply the aforementioned numbers by 8, which would make this into quite the impressive tactic.

Of course, because you use SP instead of GP on the craft checks, this isn't going to be much of an ability for getting crafted items when you need them; most of the time, you'll probably try to just mass-produce raw materials to solve problems with. After all, you can make at least 320 pounds of copper as a full-round action at level 1: imagine how much you could create if you went for something cheaper.

Wizard-level feats are supposed to be pretty nuts, and I think this one fits. If you don't want things to get quite this out of hand, though, I'd probably suggest reducing it to 1 GP instead of 5 GP, and make crafting much faster. Also, you might want to consider a weight limit: although it's funny, a level 12 alien that squirts out 93 tons of copper per hour is not something one generally considers to be "believable". --Foxwarrior 03:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Lets start by noting that at you don't regain bio-energy drain all at once, per hour, so no, you can't do most of your examples under any circumstance. And the material would vanish quick enough that you wouldn't be able to make that much money at all. Second, you must pay 3 Bio-energy drain to make it last forever, which is on top of all other points spent.

If you want to make a point, read up on the material first. You seem to be always looking for ways to make a shit ton of cash in the game, anyway, so, no offense, but you aren't exactly who I look to when I want help. Eiji, Franken Kessey, someone who is working on Complete Xeno stuff.

Or at least someone who seems serious in what they make. Though you did point out one mistake I made: I forgot to mention that the matter is obviously alien in nature, or at least not standard iron or copper.--YX33A 03:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh, right, the money focus of your comment reminded me that I made a mistake on the raw material worth. I sometimes type what I'm thinking, even though what I'm typing has not caught up with my speed of thought. Hence the double value with Bio-Energy, and with bio-energy drain, which was supposed to just be bio-energy drain which doubles the value.--YX33A 04:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The Bio-Energy page has just this to say on the mechanics of recovering for Bio-Energy Drain: "Bio energy drain can be restored through one or more hours of uninterrupted rest." Nothing about that implies that it would take more than 1 hour to recover all 15 points.

All of my examples involved taking 3 Bio-energy drain to make it last forever. Did you mean to say that points of Bio-Energy Drain beyond the first 3 doubled the value? In that case, and with your slow interpretation of Bio-Energy recovery, the level 12 example character would spend 2 bio-energy points for 10 gp, drain 3 to make it permanent, and drain 10 to double it 10 times, for a total of 10240 gp every 13 hours. Still not completely worthless. --Foxwarrior 08:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

If you had read the talk page, you would realize that you recover bio-energy drain at a rate of one drain per hour of rest.

I'll be blunt here: I don't care for your input here, because you have a track record of finding get rich quick schemes with my stuff.

And for the record, 26 in ANY stat is ungodly good for any character. Find a way to get that high of a con score at ECL 12 and be Xenotheric, and I'll think about amending my data based on your findings.--YX33A 15:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Start with 18. Use your Wishes to get a +5 inherent bonus. Put a +1 into it from leveling up. Get an item so cheap there is no question that you can have it. As you can see, 26 is very much on the low end. --Foxwarrior 18:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow... Some meta-conversation things...

1. Expecting someone to read the talk page to find rules is like expecting someone who just bought a shiny new book to take it home and immediately look up the errata in a forum somewhere while disregarding the inconsequential bits; in short it's expecting rather a lot of people. The rules are supposed to be on the rules page. If it's been explained or updated in talk, port it back to the rules page already. Even if you aren't the author, if it's his comments indicating this adjustment you can edit that in as it's a constructive edit under out definition. I'll probably go do that in a minute, assuming it's not too buried in the talk for me to find quickly.
2. If someone has a history of finding something in your work doesn't mean that their comments are unhelpful, it means that your work has a history of including particular things. And if you don't like those things, you should be more cognizant of them. Telling someone that you don't care about their input because they have a track record of finding where it is exploitable is akin to telling the world that you don't want any negative input on the work at all. Seriously, what do you want input on, how awesome and great it is and how anyone with a problem with it is obviously wrong?
3. Wizard level after level 9ish includes some amount of wish spam. People have high stats, as was just demonstrated. If this isn't something you want to account for (and I often don't) you should work towards a lower level of balance.

His example may be flawed, but this is still easily exploitable by a wizard level character. I haven't looked at all of the interconnected bits enough to have an opinion on whether it is too exploitable or not, as many wizard level characters have wealth loops and this is just another one, but I did want to chime in about your last response. - Tarkisflux 18:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right on expecting him to have read the talk page, I suppose, but I don't like editing other peoples pages without their OK, aside from grammar and spelling. But I have had a issue with him on my talk pages. I mention that the upper cap on a object that a race can make is 1,000,000 GP, somehow finding a member of said race and kidnapping it, torturing it until it doesn't think it's worth anything, and exploiting it, is automatically effective for getting 1,000,000 GP fast. Then he defends his scheme, despite me saying that it doesn't work that way, implying that he knows the mechanics of a race I'm writing better then me.

Plus, his level twelve character is 106600 GP over his wealth by level expectation. Not that a wizard who makes things is expected to be within that range, but still. I'm not going to care about a comment which ignores what I'm asking for. I don't want a discussion about how rich you can get with this, I want people to help me balance this.--YX33A 18:46, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Let me explain why I didn't(and usually don't) receive his comment well: I want help fixing broken bit, not long discussion about how it's broken.--YX33A 19:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

If you don't want people using this for wealth loops, just remove the possibility of it being "permanent". Make it a thing that ties up your bio-energy until the item is released, at which time it comes back as if it were normal drain. Then people who know what the item is won't buy it, and people who do just got fools golded a bit and won't be caught by it a second time. No weird value calculations required, which are exceptionally bizarre given that it's equally effective and people aren't paying full price "just because".

To compensate for this, allow it to be magical or act as other materials if you invest more points in it. Even consumables like acid or arrows are completely fine in a wizard level game, and might give you a reason to take a bizarre crafting. And you may want to consider a weight / volume limit in place of a cost limit, especially in a setup where it's not permanent and you can't just sell it anyway, to avoid things like Damocles' Ingot. - Tarkisflux 21:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind if it can be used to make money. In fact, that's one of the main advantages of it. A source of income, but not in the range if over a 1000GP a day(standard wizard enchanting value per day).

I'm aiming for about 1000GP a day max, which.... Idea get!--YX33A 21:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

That's only the value they can pour into an item, assuming they aren't trying very hard anyway. They can actually wish for a lot more than that, or plane shift and mine more, or whatever. That's actually a very small number of gps at some point. So setting it there with no regard to level or anything else is likely to make this feat lose relevance as you level up. Which isn't necessarily bad, but it is something to be aware of. - Tarkisflux 22:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Is a thousand gold, with no strings attached, per day, something a level 20 character would laugh at during their downtime? Wishing for your item to be done quicker(or just wishing for items in general) costs XP, which the wizard would burn though like crazy. This feat is, with enough effort, a source of income which is always available. Sure, finding a buyer may be tough in some cases, but it is possible that a army would need a set of weapons mass produced(1000 short spears a day, anyone?), or some sort of rough equal to some rare alchemical object(how many bottles of mercury do you need?). I don't think a thousand a day is out of the question, since it's a thousand with no strings attached, assuming you have at least 11 Bio-energy to cap out. Which requires about 26 con. It's not perfect, but it works for me.--YX33A 22:32, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

A thousand gold, with no strings attached, per day, is something that a level 20 Wizard-level character would laugh at during their downtime. And no, in the wish economy, Wishes do not cost experience or gold. --Foxwarrior 00:32, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Max Worth and Weight/Size Table

While your paragraph on the topic is quit lucid, and well thought out... It has a way of hurting the eyes. A table(s) might allow for not just an easier read, but also a more popular page. Live what you love --Franken Kesey 20:06, 20 January 2011 (UTC)