Talk:Variant Body Assemblage (3.5e Feat)

About the name

You know, I reaaaaally don't like the way Frank & K did their necromancy feats, which is a shame because they're used as pre-reqs for cool stuff. So, something more traditional and IMHO more functional. For example the original body assemblage; just how long does it take? Any components? Who knows. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:10, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

circumstances

how many times can it be used a day? also, doesn't it feel to overpowered that a 3rd level spell can be used by a 1st level caster, and it doesn't even have to be prepared since it's a spell-like ability? it should require knowledge of at least 2nd level necro spells, and only after learning 3rd lvl necro spells should one receive the ability to use this ability with onyx gems (animating for longer than 24h) and the bonus of 10int on animating with the original spell. gonna apply those changes, if you disagree, revert and state your reasons, as most of the necromancy pages seem to be abandonned 5.172.237.69 12:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC) - manioo8

It is useable at will. Actually for a second I thought I made a typo, but turns out you put 1/day, but also left "at will" which made it more confusing.

This is a rebuild of the Body Assemblage (3.5e Feat) feat, which is Tome. Frank & K were fine authors, but some of their ideas were very unpolished and broken. I liked the concept behind it, but it wasn't working, and setting it to it's own pool based on Cha was broken, so I fixed it. With that said, it's power level hasn't really changed, and is generally very strong. It's unquantifiable because necromancy is very much a "DM may I" kind of deal, you generally will only get what the DM gives you.

You are right that this is not a spell. It's designed for low level too since animate dead is one of those spells you could drop to 1st, and not change it's functionality of it at all. Since I don't agree with the nerf, I did revert it. Even so, I very much appreciate you bringing this on the talk page, and if you want we can debate it further if you feel strongly about it. Good show sir.

What did you mean about necromancy pages being abandoned? What necromancy page? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I feel like the access to raising undead at level 1 is still too early for most players. player at level one can control up to 4HD, 2HD skeleton in one cast. one 2HD skeleton is a 12hp goon that is more or less stronger than the caster, whose hp at lvl 1 is lower. Keep in mind that that caster can have two skeletons like that, and if he pays 50gp per a skeleton then they remain indefinitely. this alone seems kinda op. keep in mind we're talking about lvl 1 team. 2 additional skeletons in a party, and each skeleton more powerful, or as powerful as the party warrior at lvl 1. When looking at challenge rating of 4HD of skeleton (it's CR2 btw) we're looking at the equivalent of having a giant ant queen for 24h free, or for 100 gold for as long as possible, based on "Creatures by CR" page on the other wiki. As it stands, I feel like it's too overpowered when starting with this feat, as it essentially comes down to "you raise from the dead, and you rais from the dead, everyone raises from the dead!"

There is not enough restrictions for this feat "used at will" and it provides too much advantage in lower levels. plus, given a party that usually fights a lot, it can be abused a lot.

Imagine a party of 4 with a caster with this feat. they get an encounter, kill everything. The caster goes: "Wait a bit guys, like 20 min"

With newly recruited goons the party of 4 + 2 get to another encounter. Caster goes: "I got this", sends his minions, they "die", enemies die.

The caster goes: "Wait like 20 min please" ...

See where this goes? With no restriction, at lower levels, heck, even at higher levels, the caster can raise the dead willy nilly where he pleases, and if he plans to use them sooner than 24h, this creates an endless loop of killing that only fuels the caster. He doesn't pay the material cost, he doesn't use up any spell slots, he doesn't care if they are destroyed, he has an unlimited ability to raise them in a lot of encounters. You effectively removed the 2 restrictions that were on the original animate dead, and even handed the spell to 1st lvl casters. if I were to use this in any campaign made by wizards of the coast I'd breeze through the fights with no problems, and it's not fun that way. And what about other party members which aren't necessary when you have a perpetual undead army at your command?

This is why I introduced nerfs and bumped it up a level. If the spell itself has restricted use both in gold and in uses per day, there's a good reason for it.

Also by abandoned pages I meant the one we both just rated, and some other ones, but they were probably on the other wiki. easy to confuse these two. Manioo8 (talk) 13:10, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll have a proper reply to this tomorrow (it's bedtime for me) but I just wanted to assure you I read it and will return after these messages from our sponsors: sleep. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 13:16, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

For direct power comparison purposes, at level 1 you can retain the services of a hireling without a feat for much less than the cost of a permanent undead follower (unless they stay around for a while). If you're replacing permanent undead on a regular basis, it is likely more expensive than just renting an actually intelligent mercenary. Guard dogs are also available for 25gps, and are probably worse than unintelligent undead you spent the feat on (as they should be). This gets you a permanent follower that won't betray you or heal naturally or think for itself for a large upfront cost, and it's pretty underwhelming in that use case IMO.

For other comparison purposes, this could be treated a lot like Leadership. You spend some downtime and some golds, get an army of little (undead) people. That's workable even if it does have low level issues as has been pointed out. But lots of things have low level issues and I think the issues are less "undead building" more "undead controlling". I don't care if a level 1 character is playing with forces he can't control, builds a bunch of uncontrolled undead in his basement, and then accidentally lets them loose on the town. That sounds kind of awesome actually. This feat doesn't let them do that without spending a bunch of moneys (so you only have to fear aristocrat necromancers), but still.

I would be pretty happy with this as a leadership style feat that let you control a total EL of creatures equal to your level/CR - 4, but let you build beyond that limit and just not control them. So anything that you built at level 1 would be uncontrolled, but maybe treat you as a target of least priority so they don't turn on you unless nothing else is around. And in such a leadership equivalent formulation, I'm not worried about the component portion of it except in cases of needing to rush. 1 day per hit die, or 25gp per hit die and 10 minute casting seems sufficient to avoid the disposable unit syndrome discussed above. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry it took so long to reply. So, you brought up some good points. It's difficult to adjudicate since animating dead is about the most unquantifiable thing you can get. It depends so much on how easily you can find and kill a 4 HD creature at level 1. I'm sure they exist, and I'm sure it's possible, I'm just not sure it's probable. There's also a restriction you forgot: the number of HD you can control at one time is still limited, so at level 1 you're stuck with 4 HD total. That still applies for the 24 hour version. As usual, it's more optimal to have one big brute consuming all your limit than dozens of little minions. As a result even though you have it at will, you won't be using it again until your old minion dies or you need an upgrade.

Still you have a point, having a CR 2 minion at level 1 is strong. Actually it's not an issue which abates at higher level (since the limit is always your level x4; weird side note, I wonder why undead HD are 1/4th of a CR but a 4 HD skeleton is CR 2). I wonder why it's less of an issue at higher levels, since I know it's not really optimal to do that. I think it's because skeletons specifically scale oddly. They're high CR at lowest HD, but quickly stop gaining CR quickly as they gain HD.

And actually the thing Tarkis suggested is fascinating. The idea of making something you can't control. Well, I think I may have a patch for it. Since animal companions give you a CR 1 mook at first, I'll limit CR you can control to your CR or less, and anything you make above that is uncontroled to be rebuked/command undeaded after, if you survive. I may implement this change. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You didn't refer to my biggest gamebreaking concern, which is the lack of limit on how many times a day this can be used, or the fact that it is a free ability. No matter the HD limit, as the example I gave still applies...

The user of this feat can create undead up to 4HD with NO COST and then if they die in a fight, he can create even more with NO COST and virtually no limit to how many of them he can raise. His whole 4HD of undead perished? No problem! I'll just raise 4 more HD again, same day, same dungeon, no cost, no danger of them turning against him, since, with his previous undead goons "dead" he has the limit of 4HD empty again, so he creates more, for free, again and again, throughout the whole dungeon. this cannot be possible, and is currently very possible AND I GUARANTEE IT WILL BE ABUSED! Best fix for this is limiting it to only one use per day. it's still a bonus since this needs no spell slots for a free animate dead, and that is something powerful for a lvl 1 player, when he could pick something like focus on skill or agility, which is greatly overpowered by this feat. also, comparing different starting feats, this one is too powerful for a lvl 1 caster in my opinion, just by comparing starter level feats. I feel like a lvl 2 caster should be the minimum allowed. Manioo8 (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

(RESET INDENT) I don't really see it as an issue. No more than the 15 minute workday issue. It's one of those things that either the DM is allowing them to proceed as slow as they want, or they aren't allowed to just wait around forever. There's usually hidden costs with waiting around, that 10 minutes you're spending trying to get free mooks is 10 minutes the enemies get to find you, plot, advance their schemes, etc.

I do get it, but I think the issue might be overstated. I could easily make it 30 minutes, or an hour casting, and make the penalty to waiting even stiffer, but I figure 10 minutes was enough for that.

If I set it at a lower balance level, I probably would have a daily limit, but at Very High I don't see the need for it. Waiting around is just asking for random encounters. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 15:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)