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→I swear I'm not a necromancer, a grave-cleaner at most
== I swear I'm not a necromancer, a grave-cleaner at most ==
I'll be going through this and cleaning it up slightly if that's alright with people here. I'll start with the easiest things (format, spelling...) and work my way through this until I stop being confortable with altering it further (or someone else does).--[[User:Eromythic|Eromythic]] ([[User talk:Eromythic|talk]]) 16:31, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
: I believe to be done with most of the changes that were obvious and didn't change the actual content (eg. typos, format, missing tables, add disciplines that had been directly referenced). At this point I would like to start taking over the other stuff as well. There's some "classes" of things that seem to need work and I would be up to fixing any of them (all of them if possible!), but '''I am not comfortable with altering this further without express permission'''. As an indication of what I have in mind as well as a reminder to myself in the future, the next things I was thinking on doing were:
:* Finish all existing base classes (part 1). Most of them have an unfinished sample encounter section that says something like "EL 15: PENDING". I would either remove it or, since the original intention of the author seemed to be providing one, fill it with one and leave the article complete.
:* Finish all existing base classes (part 2). Some classes have other unfinished bits here and there that could be tackled. This is more of a case by case thing that would be discussed in their individual Talk pages.
:* Add disciplines to list. Some disciplines are mentioned in the Talk pages here and there but aren't on the list (Black Rain). Other disciplines are listed through Maneuvers offered by disciplines already in the list but aren't in the list themselves (Occult Sovereignity, Mental Grip, Pungeon Pendragon, Organic Repast). I wouldn't feel comfortable adding all homebrewed disciplines here just because, but there's a number of disciplines that feel like they were actually meant to be here but somehow aren't. I'm okay using my own judgement to add things but I would still want explicit greenlight for that.
:* Finish existing disciplines (part 1). Many disciplines seem to have set a "tradition" for a number of things: legacy weapon, discipline feat, tactical feat and maneuver granting item. Then again, many other disciplines don't have those. I admit to being triggered by it and feel compelled to complete the cycle by giving those to all disciplines that are missing them.
:* Add feats and items mentioned in the disciplines to the item and feat lists in chapter 2. Some of them are there but not all. This one I feel confortable doing right now but it's related to the previous point so I was delaying this until after doing that if possible.
:* Finish existing disciplines (part 2). Some disciplines are incomplete in more particular ways (few maneuvers, references to things that don't exist, etc.). This is more of a case by case thing that would be discussed in their individual Talk pages.
:* Expanding ToB disciplines. The current lists of added maneuvers for each ToB discipline is extremely unequal (17 new Desert Wind maneuvers while Stone Dragon has none). There's probably a number of homebrewed maneuvers that don't have the Complete Sublime category but could be added, some of them might even have been meant to be added. Still, once again I would need explicit greenlight before thinking about adding new stuff to those lists.
:* Chapter 4 is largely unfinished as well, with whole sections left empty and a list of 100 things that actually contains less than 30.
:--[[User:Eromythic|Eromythic]] ([[User talk:Eromythic|talk]]) 07:47, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
::I'll answer based on what I've experienced on the matter of changing/completing other users' works.
::* Finish all existing base classes (part 1 and 2). As a general advice, I'd say that work 5 years old or more is fair game to change/complete (especially if you plan to mantain the general idea of the author/complete minor aspects) unless the author is active (has contributed to the wiki in the last year at least), in which case I'd first ask on the talk page of the specific article.
::* Add disciplines to list. I'm no expert about this sourcebook, but as nobody has opposed your work as of now, provided that you stay within the general scope of the material I' think you're fine, unless an admin or author stops you. Just wait some time to let someone answer, if they want to.
::* Finish existing disciplines (part 1 and 2). The same as the first two points, but as the proposed changes seem to be more substantial I'd advise you to suggest changes on talk first. Having said that, to my understandings, some disciplines have been transferred from the old wiki, and their original authors never even came here, sooo... probably fair to complete them.
::* Expanding ToB disciplines. Probably fair to add the category.
::As far as I can explicitly authorise you, I've two disciplines of my own: [[Ars Venatoria (3.5e Martial Discipline)|Ars Venatoria]] and [[Hex Eye (3.5e Martial Discipline)|Hex Eye]]. The first one is complete, but if you want to suggest anything or add it to the sourcebook (if it's within its scope, I haven't read it, as I said) go on. For the other one, the same as above and it's lacking some pieces, which I've been struggling to complete: any help is very appreciated, if you want let's talk about it on the talk page. --[[User:The bluez in the dungeon|The bluez in the dungeon]] ([[User talk:The bluez in the dungeon|talk]]) 12:41, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
:::Hi Bluez, thank you for the answer!! I'll follow your advice as I go through things this weekend. --[[User:Eromythic|Eromythic]] ([[User talk:Eromythic|talk]]) 02:28, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
== Work Breakdown ==
* Sublime Deities
* District (for cities)
* <s>NPC Class?</s> [[Partisan (3.5e NPC Class)|That's right, I went there.]]* <s>Plane?</s> [[Mrityulok (3.5e Environment)|We can make a layer for every discipline if we so choose. Under progress.]]* <s>Sublime version of the PHB2 Knight?</s> [[Sublime Knight (3.5e Class)|Look what I diiiiiid....]]
* History of how the disciplines were founded, along with NPC writeups of major characters.
::See my breakdown above, basically. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 20:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
:::Who wants to join me in fleshing out [[Mrityulok (3.5e Environment)|the plane of ToB]]? Gonna make individual pages for each layer, but I rather the original authors did their own layers. Plus if you want to do a ToB discipline layer, by all means. In fact at time of writing, almost all have names and ideas you can start with, they just need fleshing. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 10:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
== Names ==
:::*Coin's Edge (Lucky fey thing)
:::*Dancing Goddess (Shiva thing) [[Dekarabia (3.5e Monster)|DONE]]
:::*Desert Wind (Demon with scorching air breath and desert sandstorm shieldDesert fire worm)[[Spicule (3.5e Monster)|DONE]]
:::*Devoted Spirit (Forms your opposite alignment and attacks)
:::*Diamond Mind (Alien creature able to move erratically/multiple times a round)
:::::::Since a rather quick look by a guy who can't fix it and referral to the primary SMW author almost a month ago, there have been no updates. As such, I wouldn't expect it resolved anytime soon. Time to start considering a different format for feats :-/ - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] 23:37, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
:I'll go through them one by one.
::* Tiger Claw - Not much done in power, maybe just new maneuvers on the base theme. And maybe a 1st level maneuver without pre-reqs, that would be nice.
::* White Raven - I actually see this as pretty solid, but I can give it more abilities which don't always need a group.
::Let's see where this goes. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 01:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
:::Those all seem sensible enough, but I don't believe they go far enough. Desert Wind being fire-focused is ten kinds of retarded - you don't ''find'' fire in deserts - you find water, earth and air, sure, but no fire. I would suggest adding a whole pile of maneuvers to it to make it the elemental discipline. Devoted Spirit needs to have powers which do level-appropriate things full stop - most of it isn't. More dispelling and buffs works, but I would actually ramp the healing available to it too. Iron Heart and Shadow Hand both need to have fewer turkey options - White Raven too, in a BIG way. Stone Dragon errata seems right. Tiger Claw seems right too. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 03:49, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
::::Feel free to ignore this, as it's all kibitzing :-p. Water is important in a desert, but not very strongly tied there since it's so rare. Water powers should probably go elsewhere, boosting stone dragon with them sounds like it could be promising. Similarly, fire is tied to the desert because the desert is hot and as close to fire as you get unless you're in a volcano or start one yourself :-p. That said, adding air powers to it would be a nice change. It's in the name even. Earth powers are a maybe, mostly because that seems like a better fit with Stone Dragon. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] 04:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
:::::I think that Tarkis makes good points. I think that earth powers should probably end up in Stone Dragon - I mean, it IS in the name and all. But air powers should definitely be in Desert Wind. Water... I see it belonging elsewhere - Setting Sun would be my first thought (and actually something I omitted, due to how awfully awful it is).
:::::Additionally, I would like to make the stand that more non-combat powers are needed. Martial artists in the source material aren't just bruisers, but philosophers and often sages to boot, which I think our work needs to reflect by providing some abilities that can be useful both in and out of combat, and possibly even some that have nothing to do with combat at all. Thoughts? - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 04:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::Can do. I'll set out to being making 2 new ones per level and 1 new capstone, with some being out of combat useful. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 04:17, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Non-com stuff would be nice MS, but are there even any maneuvers types (aside from stances) that affect you and have a duration other than "this action/round"? Would adding personal duration based maneuvers mess with the recharge schedules in place? Would that sort of thing be restricted to stances only, or better done in feat form maybe? - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] 04:34, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Honestly, I don't think it would mess with existing recharge schedules. Doing stuff in stance form is, however, much easier. There are maneuvers that last more than 1 round on record already, so I don't see issues with that. As for making it a feat - kill that. Kill it with fucking fire. People get like 7 feats ever, and I'm sure as hell not taxing them those for stuff their class should give them anyway. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 04:58, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::If you feel like tossing me a couple of duration based effects that would be nifty, preferably non-homebrew. It's fine if you don't though, I'm mostly just curious what they are and how they are constructed.
:::::::::I actually had in mind a scaling feat, but attacking the feat idea with the desert wind discipline until it dies is a fair call too. It is a pretty harsh limit. Is the stance approach going to suffer the same problem as the feat approach also, or do people have enough stances to be able to give up some for this sort of thing? - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] 05:05, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
(Resetting indent)Sure.
Blistering Flourish
Desert Wind (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1
Action: 1 standard action
Range: 30ft
Area: 30ft burst, centred on you
Duration: 1 minute
Save: Fort negates
The very first one listed in ToB, too!
The main issue with scalies is that I see a lot of rogue-level fans being quite resistant to the idea, so I'm not sure if it's really suitable for Complete Sublime. As for stance availability, I reckon that honestly, it's something that people can afford to give up. Since you can only maintain 1 at a time anyway, they'll usually pick one 'combat stance' and just stand in it all day long anyway. Or at least, that's been my experience. Stances which give interesting things, like Hunter's Sense and Step of the Dancing Moth, are quite rare, and there need to be more of them. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 05:10, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
:That is a duration based power that hits other people, not yourself, and follows the standard status effect paradigm. My original query, which got shortened a second ago, was for a maneuver this isn't a stance and "affects you and has a duration other than 'this action/round'". I was looking for a strike or boost that lasted multiple rounds for you, not the dude you hit, since that's the sort of power you're talking about adding (charm and similar combat status effects that can be used out of combat not-withstanding). But it probably is going to be all stances except for things that apply status effects like charm and follow the standard design setup anyway, and if there aren't that many interesting stances it sounds like it'll work out fine.
:Minor thing, I actually don't like scalies for other reasons, but thought they'd be a fair fit here. Tactical might be a better fit for the balance range than scaling, giving several abilities instead of one, but it's still a pretty limited resource. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] 05:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
::Ah, I see. Well, stances-only suits me just fine, to be honest. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 05:42, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
:::Good news. DESERT WIND, DEVOTED SPIRIT, and DIAMOND MIND expansions are done. The progress continues, comments on their balance very welcome. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 09:35, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
== Black Rain ==
: Woo, this may actually spark me back into working on the wiki. --[[User:Havvy|Havvy]] 03:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
::Just an FYI for The Demented One, making a planar layer based off your Black Rain. Since it is your original idea though, if you ever wish to edit it by all means do so. I'll just try and give it justice. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 22:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
== New Material ==
:: While they could go here for now, when Cidolfas starts on his big book of monsters, they would probably fit better there. One of the notions of Complete Sublime is that magic and blade are not counterpoint, but rather, in DnD, an integrated trope. --[[User:Havvy|Havvy]] 18:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
(New topic, new indent) So I've been brewing the idea of epic maneuvers for a while.... oh sit back down! I realize I'm the minority who doesn't poo-poo epic gameplay, mostly because I run patches on epic rules so I'm not actually using WotC's way. Anyway, epic maneuvers. The idea is that these are 1/encounter maneuvers with no refresh means, but they are suitably epic. Some of them might not even be able to be activated until conditions are met (under 50% hp, just critted someone, falling from 200ft, etc) I don't know if I wanted to make a system for them (like the whole epic spell seeds) or just make a few epic maneuvers which are gained either via feats (like epic warlock), some manner of pre-req (to gain Ultra Galaxy Stone Crusher you need X Stone dragon maneuvers, the 9th level stone dragon maneuver, and balls of stone), or have them accessable through classes or something.
Anyway I'm making the call out to anyone who would like to help me work on this idea. We don't need many, one per discipline, the super-capstone to the class which are accessed at 21+. I know one of you will want to help, whose game?
(EDIT: I nearly forgot! The other thing I was thinking of just was epic maneuvers that expanded past 9th... 10th, 11th, 12th, maybe up to 15th though 12 is probably enough since that is levels 21, 23, and 25 there. Same thing as above.
Part of the reason is that in fluff in some parts I've hinted to some fantastic awesome forbidden discipline which was sealed away and is apparently highly destructive to both its user if they aren't strong enough, and its victims. It would be a prime example of an "epic maneuver" or maneuver granting epic class. Anyway, just one of the things floating around there.) -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 03:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
(Addition) Apparently I'm gonna have to hunt you guys down in Mibbit, you've forgotten to reply here in ages. :P Anyway, check this out, [[Wildblade (3.5e Class)|Wildblade]]. Input on power is welcome. The Wild Moon discipline will be coming shoot for submitting for CS. It's a Lycan/Shapeshiping themed discipline. Where Tiger Claw is all about multiple attacks, this one's about raging under a full moon and turning into things. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 09:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
== Quick quistions ==
1) Which Martial Disciplins are you planning on putting here (of the homebrewed ones in the wiki)
2) When im finished with the fluff and balancing woult the [[User:Wildmage/Sandbox2|Soul-Rage Skald]] fit in here
[[User:Wildmage|Born to Be Wild]] 08:38, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
:On number two, it looks like you'll be going up against [[User:MisterSinister/Sublime_Barbarian]]. You two may want to discuss this particular niche. --[[User:Havvy|Havvy]] 00:20, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
::I somehow doubt it. I have no issues with his work being included over my own, and for that matter, I don't think the two mutually exclusive, since one is more like a bard and the other more like a barbarian.
::To answer the question of the disciplines in here, it'll be everything you can see on the title page, plus Black Rain, when I get around to including it amid exam preparation and completing LD. - [[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 04:40, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
:::I went and reviewed both classes and gave my 2 cents.
:::Also while I am not making one (no need to make THREE now) I am posting my prototype sublime barbarian writeup here. Those making sublime barbs can draw inspiration from it.
Good BAB, Good Fort, Bad Reflex and Will, d12, 6+Int<br>
Warblade maneuver refresh<br>
Few maneuvers known, moderate maneuvers readied, moderate stances known.<br>
Main Gimmick: When you rage, you gain access to new rage-only maneuvers and basically double your load, and your one maneuver auto-refreshes each round.<br>
Disciplines: Amaranth Eclipse, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw<br>
1-Fast Movement, Rage (Akin to Pathfinder, 4+Con rounds, +2 rounds every level, split up as you like with a cooldown period when you stop raging.)<br>
2-DR/- equal to half level, Uncanny Dodge<br>
3-Resist Magic while raging +1, Endure Elements constant<br>
4-Barbarian-Type Bonus Feat, Ranger Animal Companion, Speak with Animals<br>
5-Improved Uncanny Dodge<br>
6-Resist Magic while raging +2<br>
7-Immediate Raging/Auto Rage if about to die<br>
8-Barbarian-Type Bonus Feat<br>
9-Resist Magic while raging +3<br>
10-Greater Rage<br>
11-Contact Other Plane, Ring of Regeneration effect<br>
12-Barbarian-Type Bonus Feat, Resist Magic while raging +4<br>
13-Smash Force Effects, Grapple Any Size<br>
14-Don't fail saves on a 1<br>
15-Resist Magic while raging +5<br>
16-Barbarian-Type Bonus Feat<br>
17-Save vs mind-affecting every round, Tireless Rage<br>
18-Resist Magic while raging +6<br>
19-Don't die from Hp damage while raging<br>
20-Barbarian-Type Bonus Feat, Mighty Rage, <br>
:::Take what you will. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 01:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
:::: finished at long last [[User:Wildmage/Sandbox2|Soul-Rage Skald]] [[User:Wildmage|Born to Be Wild]] 10:13, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
==Disciplines==
Since I don't know what the plan is for the Iron Heart discipline yet, I would like to claim the duties of revising that discipline. I have some pretty win ideas. Eiji, if you want to chat about it find me on IRC. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 04:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
:I have no plan, make it so! You got Iron Heart! -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 04:59, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
::Also, I kinda want Setting Sun as well, but it can wait until after I finish Iron Heart. Shouldn't be long now before I'm done, but if you want dibs on Setting Sun I wouldn't want to do something you've already got covered. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] 02:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Eromythic
|rating=like
|reason=I've been going through this these last days and it's great!! I really like the premise and ideas, and the way they're implemented is awesome as well.
Unfortunately, it's clearly incomplete, and even sections that seem complete could also benefit from a quick editorial swipe. Overall these things end up detracting from its value as a sourcebook, which is a real pity.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=favor
|reason=Awesome wokr, even if not complete 100% That said I contributed a little to the book so take my rating with a grain of salt.
}}
{{Rating
|rater=ThunderGod Cid
|rating=like
|reason=I contributed to this sourcebook, so I'm not a totally unbiased source. That said, this book is pretty boss no matter how I slice it. Most of the maneuvers are original, flavorful, and a definite upgrade over some pretty questionable decisions made by the writers of the ''Tome of Battle''. The incorporation of rushes actually allows you to do something with all of your available actions, while maneuver-like abilities allow for the incorporation of maneuvers into monsters in a way that makes them easy to use (and for me, easy to create). I may not agree with everything about it, but it's overall a great resource for fans of Tome of Battle. Suffice to say it has converted me into a fan of martial maneuvers.
}}
{{Rating|
|rater=Wildmage
|rating=favor
|reason=What is not to like, it good written overall, easy to use (if you have looked at tome of battle before). It inspired me to try my hand in homebrewing martial stuff. Overall thumbs up, and for you who have not read it yet, get to it.}}
