Talk:Forsaker (3.5e Class)

Ratings

AngelofEresos is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.

This rating is as high as it is entirely because I think it's a very cool class, with very cool ideas. But as it stands, it is basically beyond function, which is heartbreaking. If it were a video game character in a single player power fantasy, I'd call the execution impeccable, with how many well named, evocatively presented abilities are on offer, but in nearly every other context, it's downright ruinous. It's like...Leroy, from Tekken 7, on release. Slick presentation, cool as hell, and fun to see in action the first couple times, but one quickly realizes how it invalidates every other option in the game. It needs a nerf. Make it not comparatively invincible, when stacked up against every other option, it's an easy favor. But in its current condition, the only reason this isn't an oppose is because I'm just such a sucker for the potential it obviously has to be something great.

Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

Where to begin. It has been a long time since we identified the Forsaker as problematic, and now it time to act. Between having the best possible class chassis, a scaling bonus to ALL ability scores and a massive deflection bonus both higher than it would possible for pre-epic magic item. It also gain full magical weapon and armor scaling. So already it not punished in the least from not having magic items. Then it get a slew of unnecessary class features, which make it the best at fighting, skills and existing in general. THEN it get massive anti-caster bonuses, including antimagic fields, immunity to magic (even without SR eventually) and given it high DR, fast healing, constant freedom of movement, boatloads of immunities and more anti-caster abilities... frankly it come as close as possible to invincible. This class has no weaknesses. Sure it can't used magic items, but it repaid tenfold. The fighter cannot match it in combat, neither can any other classes. Not only that, but it easily negate other classes's ability to magic, evening the playing field, or rather making everyone play by his rules. Overall this a highly unbalanced class, which only loses to the wizard in providing utility. But frankly, does that matter when you can just walk over every encounters? It completely make every non-spellcasting classes (since it the only niche it cannot touch) obsolete and is significantly outclassing other fighting classes.

	Somehownotsingle favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Love the concept and the execution. Fantastic!

IP change

Hey 50.195.136.149, when making major class changes (that is anything that isn't clarity or typo fixing) it's typically requested that you leave a note on the talk page what you did and why, or try and contact the author if he's about. I reverted it as I don't feel that Con to AC and then 2x Con to AC is a good idea. Discuss it here if you feel otherwise. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of Class

I like the look of this class, and am considering using at as the basis of an enemy NPC for the party in my game to encounter soon. They chose to be a caster-heavy party, so this should be a good "mini-boss" fight for them. However, I'm still relatively new to D&D (and DM'ing), so I'm hoping to get some discussion on this class going before I decide to use it.Somehownotsingle (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Certainly, glad to help, and always happy to see my things in use. How shall I assist you? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:02, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, my party doesn't really have a front-line fighter. It's a few casters and a homebrew class that basically amounts to a full BAB rogue with some good techniques (but still light armor). They're all level 9. So I thought about the Forsaker as a way to challenge them, but my biggest concern is how to do this. If I cast the anti-magic field, then they're basically stuck with melee and ranged attacks. Their attack rolls are basically between 11+d20 and 13+d20, and I was thinking about using a level 12 Forsaker (as a suitable "mini-boss fight," for 4 level 9 characters), but that's looking to be around close to 30 AC (29 as currently rolled and equipped). So all that vomiting of information to say, how do I use a Forsaker to challenge my caster-heavy party without a TPK, and what sort of AC should I aim for with the Forsaker they would face. Also, if talk pages on classes aren't appropriate venues for questions like this, I apologize; just let me know.Somehownotsingle (talk) 22:07, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

This is a perfect place for this stuff. Lemme roll up my sleeve and break out my DM experience...

Looks like their main offenses is magic and flanking. Do they focus on evocationy blasting or battlefield control and the like, as this may alter things. At level 12, a forsaker's DR will be 6/-, not impassable but possibly problematic for the rogue-type unless he's flanking (which he wants to anyway). Improved Uncanny Dodge will ruin his day though. For the casters, Runica and Magic Immunity are their big things, as well as Magebane offensively. Think of the forsaker as a golem battle, but more difficult due to the intelligence behind the "golem". Have they faced one before? Do they know how to act when magic does not avail them directly?

Now the magic immunity is not absolute. A few spells don't use SR, and they will be invaluable. The casters may need to prepare for this, so dropping hints how "Bob slew 1000 casters" or "I heard he has some kind of shield against spells" might help them prep accordingly, if they're savvy enough.

My suggestion; they have the odds stacked against them in the form of higher level and having basically the counter to their builds, so supply methods for their builds to still function, conditionally. Sneak attacks are a no go, but improved uncanny dodge shuts down if he's immbolized. Maybe something in the room, or an item he finds, will immobilize him. The casters can't fireball him, but they can fireball the rope on the chandralier above him to ruin his day. In short, make this a puzzle battle. Taylor the scene to allow an easy victory... if they are attentive and use bombs wisely items wisely. Going direct for stabbing and spells will work, but be much slower and more dangerous.

It's not advised, lest they think you're going easy on them, but depending on the personality of the villain a bit of gloating and showing off during a one-sided curbstop of a fight can sometimes help. Action economy is king, and if he's wasting any, that leaves him weaker. Finally, remember mundane things still have an effect. A giant boulder trap can'tbe antimagiced away. If they can choose the battlefield, all so much the better. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 04:35, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! That really helps. The idea of a "puzzle" battle makes alot of sense. Basically, I can free totally free to yell "Screw you!" to the party and their traditional tactics, as long as I provide another path to victory that they have to figure out. --Somehownotsingle (talk) 18:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Pathfinder Version

For converting to pathfinder, some skills are lost like Use Rope, and so the class simply doesn't have it. In exchange though skills that were fused, such as Balance and Tumble, have the advantage. You can use Acrobatics to activate either the balance benefit or the tumble benefit or the jump benefit, and so forth.

There is one new skill, Fly, with no analog. So here it is.

Fly: DC 30- You can hover 1 inch over the ground each round you maintain at least a 30. You can move like this walking over difficult terrain and dangers. When you hit 6 HD, you gain a fly speed of 30 ft (good) plus an additional +10 feet for every +10 DC, up to double your land speed. If you fail a check you drift down slowly as per fly.

There we go. In order to fly 60 ft good, that's a pretty beefy DC 60 each round. But it should work. You are, after all, flying without magic. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 04:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion...

Maybe one of the abilities for Sense Motive could enable Probe Thoughts with a high enough check? That'd be pretty useful. -SecondDeath777 16:33, 22 Jun 2018

Y'know what? Upon further examination, this thing is busted as hell. Could you possibly rework it to make it player suitable? -SecondDeath777 20:45, 30 Nov 2018

Elaborate, and I will look into it. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 19:03, 30 November 2018 (MST)

It's basically a complete and utter immortal when faced with most things in the Monster Manual. It is physically impossible to stop as a caster, and as a mundane warrior, you're likely outclassed in every possible fashion. It needs...a chink. A vulnerability. A viable way that any opponent can combat it. Shutting down one kind of enemy is a bit harsh. But shutting down most to all? It's...why would you ever give this to a player? XD -SecondDeath777 21:19, 30 Nov 2018

I will give it a review later then. It's an old rework of a former PrC. I'll either fix any obvious breaks or pump it to VH, then maybe offer a M-H version at another time. We'll see. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 21:31, 30 November 2018 (MST)