User talk:Spazalicious Chaos/XP Adjustment (3.5e Variant Rule)

Bad Example

The Centaur has 4 racial hit dice and is ECL 6. It is not a "level 1" character by any stretch. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Perfect example for that reason. It starts with way more HP and abilities than other "LVL 1" characters at LVL 1. And that was the point I was trying to make.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 06:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for double posting, but I'm not sure the formula completely works for XP adjustment, so any way to fix breaking points, if any?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 06:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what ECL means then. An ECL 6 creature is intended to be played with 6th level characters; see SRD:Creatures as Races. It's not that it's "not a level 1 character" because it's substantially stronger than they are, it's actually not intended to be used with level 1 characters at all. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I understand ECL all too well... it needs to die, and die horribly. I'm just hoping this variant is a step in the right direction.

Which kinda answers my own question, I think. Does this work better if the XPA is a function of LA or ECL?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 21:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Neither. Any system that allows me to play a centaur wizard 1 in a party with a human cleric 1 and pay for it later with an xp deduction has failed on first principles. You want to do that with LA, you might be able to make that case for LA +1 or +2 stuff, but it's a hard sell. It's a non-started with racial hit dice and ECL, even as badly done as they are. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh look, a level 1 campaign. "I'm gonna play a human fighter!" Cool. "I'm an elven wizard!" Awesome. And as for me... I'm going to play a Paragon Pseudonatural Great Wyrm Force Dragon. The fact I only get 1 XP per 1000 xp gained doesn't matter, I'm goddamn invincible! And I'll continue to be invincible until, oh, CR 84. -- Eiji-kun 22:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention the fixed XP penalties are extremely small and of no concern past...what, level 3? -HarrowedMind 00:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

So that means that the penalty formula should be uped? Other factors should apply, like level? What should the formula look like?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 00:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Did you not see what Eiji wrote? If the Paragon Pseudonatural Great Wyrm Force Dragon lost 1000 experience per encounter, they'd end up destroying the entire campaign setting before shriveling into nothingness. If you want to have a ridiculous campaign in which only the players who can find stupid templates actually have any effect on the world, then your XP Adjustment rule is unhelpful, and cannot be helpful. If you don't, then your XP Adjustment rule is ineffective, and cannot be effective. --Foxwarrior 01:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Or, to put it another way, if you put a centaur in an otherwise first level party, balance will be wrecked no matter how long it takes for the centaur to reach 2nd level.--Ideasmith 01:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

Your formula shouldn't include racial hit dice in the calculation anywhere at all. A creature with 4 or 40 or 9001 hit dice is not ever ever ever going to be equivalent to a level 1 human, no matter how much xp you want to dock them while adventuring. So you have to not allow creatures with more than 1 or 2 racial hit dice (depending on creature type) to be in a party with a level 1 human, and those creatures don't get class levels on top of it. Their first level is in creature, so that's what they get.

If you want to charge for LA separately with an xp tax you can do that without letting Eiji's dragon into the party, but you're still leaving yourself open to problems. Most of the time, because of collapsing game syndrome or one-shot suitability reasons, the "buy now, pay later" strategy always benefits those who "buy now". So any formula you use that lets me come in with a +5 LA as a level 1 wizard in a game of level 1 people is going to encourage that, since it looks like a straight power up for longer than most campaigns run. But if you want a formula, give them this fraction of xp: Level / (Level + LA). So with a LA +1 race you get 1/2 xp at level 1, 2/3 xp at level 2, 3/4 xp at level 3, and so on. You don't stay as far behind as you would with a normal LA setup, but it's close and you aren't hosed on hit dice at those early levels. It also matters lots in the beginning, where LA is a powerup, and drops off as you grow in level, where LA matters much less. It might even be big enough to stop people from just getting the biggest LA they can find, unless the whole party does it and fights kobolds for an extra long time.

The real solution to fixing LA is to remove it entirely, and rework LA races as ECL races instead. They get some hit dice, some bonus crap, start the game with characters of their ECL, and multiclass into a regular class from there. Gan's done this with a few races to great effect, and it's about the only solution to the LA problem that makes any sense IMO. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 02:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)