Talk:Pantheren (3.5e Race)

Underpowered

I like this I really do, however it seems a bit weak, nothing wrong with what you've got so far, but it hardly compares to the basic gnomes, halflings, elves or dwarves. It looks like a stealthy acrobatic panther-human and I like that but it's beaten in both those parts by halflings. I don't no what could help hmmm maybe give it some abilities of the ranger like a slightly weaker version of Camouflage, or maybe something that plays on the predatory part giving him a bonus to damage dealt in the first round.--Stryker 12:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible amendments that would add power:

1) 1d6 sneak attack (which stacks with sneak attack bonuses from other sources)

2) Balance and Climb are added to skill bonuses, and a +1 bonus to reflex saves

3) Weakened Camouflage

a) as camouflage, except it does not work against creatures within 20’

b) +5 bonus to hide and move silently checks

c) works only against creatures with darkvision, creatures that can see the full color spectrum can detect the ruse

4) Gains the Pounce special ability

5)Slight Build

• each number is meant to stand alone

Thoughts? --Franken Kesey 23:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Pounce on an LA +0 race? I would probably have to discourage that one. I also don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be; being beaten by the halfling, which is essentially one of the best starting races available, is not really a reason to say it's that bad. It's better than an elf by just about every reckoning; it's just not a halfling. - TG Cid 03:10, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

1d6 of SA isn't bad (though I don't think it's particularly good either), but making it stack and scale is probably too much for a LA +0. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 18:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I strongly object to any changes being made to a race that make it more problematic to work with instead of less. That's what this currently does. I also don't really understand why it was adopted when no one had actually gone as far as to even rate it negatively. If it had been panned, I would not be opposed to adoption, but it wasn't. - TG Cid 00:00, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Adoption

How does one adopt a page? --Franken Kesey 20:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Through administrator approval and you (the potential adopter) writing the author, Sabre070, a message on his talk page, waiting a few weeks to see if he responds, and then see what happens from there. I haven't seen him around in a while. Hopefully he's email confirmed and he'll get a message that way and stop in. --Ganteka Future 20:44, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

No one has objected here and you put messages up on the author's page (who isn't registered, but meh) and gotten nothing back. So go ahead and just adopt it already FK; worst case we have to revert something (oh noes!) - Tarkisflux ^Talk 03:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Mechanics

Everyone has seen cat-based races before. Making this stand out and be cool, offering something that other catfolk don't offer is gonna be a problem. I'm just gonna post some fake mechanics below as an example and explain as I go. Things won't be formatted or worded professionally for expediency purposes. Also, because there is a lot of stuff, all of it is likely to be "too much". This is just for example purposes.

• +2 Dex, -2 Cha: Ability modifiers. Whatever.
• Humanoid (Feline): Type and subtype. Whatever.
• Medium: Size. Whatever.
• Base land speed 30: An unarmed pantheren may get on all fours, granting it a base land speed of 40. Note the "unarmed" part. This is important because otherwise there's no drawback to not having 40 speed all the time and might just as well be posted as 40 flat out. If it even matters to make that distinction. Alternately, as 40 speed is pretty sweet, you could go with the 30 and an alternate ability, something like:
• Haul Ass: A pantheren is treated as having Fast Movement 10 on his land speed when making only a move action or double move action. This is probably a bit complicated and not worth it for whatever reasons of playability.
• Low-light Vision: Cats see good. Whatever.
• Cat Sense: A pantheren is a bundle of crazy senses. A pantheren can use Spot checks in place of Listen checks to detect Invisible or Ethereal creatures. Ethereal creatures being treated as being invisible. A useful ability, if situationally limited.
• Cat Fall: A pantheren can make Jump check to reduce fall damage, reducing the damage taken by 10 feet an starting at a DC of 10. For every additional 5 points he beats this DC by, he subtracts another 10 feet from his falling damage. Typical races start the Jump down DC at 15 and don't get bonus increments of success. Allows the ability some usefulness as the character levels, encourages skill point investment in Jump.
• Cat Skills: Pantheren gain the following skills as Class skills for all classes: Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble. In addition, a pantheren gains 2/4/X skill points per HD to spend exclusively on these skills. Spot and Listen were added from the previous list for the purposes of being better at the "lead man" or "scout" style characters. Additionally, the skill points instead of bonuses keeps them in the same expected success of other characters will increasing the likely hood that any given pantheren character is good at that skill at least moderately, like the race implies.
• Rowr: Pantheren can chat with cats, like the spell speak with animals, except that it is limited to cats and other cat-creatures. This is actually mentioned in the flavor text of the article, but currently isn't present in the mechanics, though it is somewhat implied with the Feline language.
• Sneak Attack: This bothers me a bit. First, as currently written, it doesn't actually say they get the Sneak Attack ability (just bonus damage when sneak attacking). Second, it really just serves as aim to peg them into a one-class-race, which is lame. Other "Our ambush tactics are practiced and superior!" abilities might be something like:
• Predatory Instincts: Pantheren, if given the chance, are brutal killers and know instinctually where to land blows, slice bodies and pierce organs for maximum effect to take their prey down. They get a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits -or- They automatically confirm critical hits on rolls of a natural 20 -or- They may treat any single attack made in a round against a flat-footed opponent (determined after rolling) as a possible critical hit.
• Blah blah blah other stuff at the bottom. Favored Class is pretty pointless. That rule shouldn't even exist other than as a "suggestion" on what class/classes a race might excel at. That's a rant for another time however.

So yeah, as is, it may have "enough", but not anything that's particularly unique/fun/engaging/tempting. Place some priority on rules that don't require having to look up stuff. I'd love to hear some thoughts from people on that big ol' list of catstuffs and other possible revision ideas. --Ganteka Future 21:05, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

• do you think charisma loss or strength loss makes more sense? Or a mental ability of players choice?
• Fixed speed. Old mechanics, do not know why author used such a complicated system.
• improved low light vision sounds more catlike, perhaps even a weak infrared; would this increase power significantly?
• Amended cats descend.
• Amended skills. Let me know if I erred from your proposal.
• Amended sneak attack.
• Agreed, favored class is erroneous; I wonder if we could change it to ‘suggested classes’ site-wide. Certainly the suggestions help newcomers.

Good eatings --Franken Kesey 15:37, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

What other problems are there, and do the amendments make it better? --Franken Kesey 18:10, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The wis damage from suppressing the infrared is a bit too painful for what that ability gives, i'd just scrap the wis damage per minute snf then that ability seems pretty spot on, a more accurate depiction of what that ability does could be nice, as it seems like it would basically be a Detect Undead/Life ability as well as dark-vision (which FYI I have seen explained as infrared vision in some Forgotten Realms novels). The sneak attack seems a little too good, I like Ganteka's suggestion of the Predatory Instinct ability. All in all a much better version of this race, with maybe a few small problems here and there, good job.--Stryker (talk) 11:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Sneak attack would allow early entry into some PrCs. I'm not sure if that is a huge deal, but worth noting. --Aarnott (talk) 19:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Adopter to Co-Author

At what point does an adopted work become so significantly changed to justify it becoming a co-authorship? Would like to merge the feline and pantheron into one race. A base at ECL 1, and a greater at ECL 3. But this would be a drastic change to this page. Yet this page has changed significantly from original authors work over many years.--Franken Kesey 12:46, 7 June 2019 (MDT)