Talk:Warforged-Gr7mm (5e Race)

Ratings

Blocked Rating

Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.Have to say I agree with Vaegrim. Most in-combat healing is done through the use of Healing Word to get characters at 0 HP back on their feet, making the limitation minimal, while between-combat healing is mostly relegated to using hit dice, which aren't treated too differently for this race compared to other classes. Body of war seems, very oddly enough, to go incredibly well with the barbarian or monk class, neither of which truly fit the flavor from my reading of it. But the bump in AC when taking bonded accuracy into account is meaningful. The juggernaut's solid construction ability blows most other races' special abilities out of the water with no real downsides, and is incredibly powerful in general. Light Frame is also basically the best part of a feat, and doesn't make too much sense to me. Lastly, as Spanambula pointed out, getting 23 AC just from magical armor without adding in a shield, the defense fighting style, a ring of protection, or any other basic gear feels way too high. As an addendum, body of war and being unarmored is confusing when read in conjunction with, say, the warforged scout. How does it interact with barbarian or monk? Etc.

Blocked Rating

Vaegrim dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.This Race seems overloaded with features. The various AC mechanics lead the curve for a number of builds, and rely on the cumbersome healing/recovery rules as a counterbalance. Counteracting big bonuses with serious flaws is the very definition of min-max bait and should be avoided. The remaining features are fine, but add up to a cluttered concept. Racial features shouldn't overwhelm class features, and these pretty clearly do.

Blocked Rating	Bazz052 favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.They didn't actually write a reason for their rating here. They could add it by adding |reason=<stuff> to their rating (per the directions), and should do so soon or the rating will be removed.

Blocked Rating

Spanambula likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.I've seen this before, but I wanted to get a bit more 5e experience under my belt before rating. This is a really solid race (no pun intended), preserving the flavor and spirit of the 3rd ed race and bringing it in line with the power balance of the 5e races. The subraces are all interesting. The immunities are attractive but not overpowered, and the repair mechanic is simple and workable. Only thing I might add is a note stating whether Warforged can be raised or resurrected normally. One assumes they can since it's not stated otherwise, but on the other hand they are created creatures. EDIT** Downgrading to Like now that I've had a chance to look it over a bit more completely. Have detailed my thoughts on the sub-races below

Formatting

What's with all of the "#"s instead of "."s? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 18:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

No clue what happened with that at all, i went though and fixed it up though. Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 22:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Repair Kit

A page for the warforged repair kit would be nice, or even the details of it on this page - Kylem2013 (talk) 19:10, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I added the WF kit after subraces, if you want more just let me know how to fluff it up. Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 22:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

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Your use of proficiency bonuses in random places makes my eyes bleed. besides the in-elegent effect it has on design, it's also very un-balenced. -- 19:05, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Well that's not the most constructive criticism I've encountered. If you provided something beyond exaggerated injuries and biting statements laced with typo's, I might be more inclined to respect your opinion. I imagine several perspectives in which throwing proficiency bonuses around can unbalance the game. I can try to slim up on how it's being thrown about now that I have a more design experience under my belt. Hopefully your next bout of review comes with better feedback than vague opinions. Also don't forget that there's a signature button.Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Changes to tactician made, replaced bonuses with the help action with action economy. Considering having it changed to add the Intelligence modifier when using the Help action. Also changed double proficiency to advantage, this should provide the boost needed without the game breaking that raw numbers provides, ultimately dwarfing key class features and stepping on all sorts of toes.

I kept the Juggernaut as is. They fill a bit of an odd role being the large durable soldier, who is well protected but has a long recovery time. Yes they tip the scales of balance to extremes on either side. The ability to shrug through physical punishment that does get through. However I am considering that the base AC needs to be dropped to 14 so it is the same as a character starting with chain-mail.

Scout seems the most basic and balanced to me. If there are any issues with here feedback would be great. Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 01:53, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

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Alrighty then, my basic thought process is somewhat laid bare for criticism. I took up the idea of assigning points to help define the power of my custom races. These numbers are based on the opinions of others with my ceiling set to not exceed the most powerful PHB race, the Mountain Dwarf. Anyway this is what I've got. I have noted that my Unarmored option does skew balance (a lot) because it is significantly better than the flat +1 that WotC proposed for the metal men. Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 16:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

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Warforged Base Chassis Living Construct: -1.5, .5, .5, 1 ASI: 2 Rest of the Sleepless: 1 Artificial Anatomy: .5 Total= 4 or 6 (+2 if unarmored)

Tactician ASI: 1 The Right Nudge: .5 Marker: 1 Of Mind and Body: .5 Living Armor: 1 Total= 8 (9 if unarmored)

Juggernaut ASI: 1 Heavy Plating: 2.5, -1 Solid Construction: 2 Lasting Injury: -1 Stability: .5 Total= 8 (cannot be unarmored)

Scout: ASI: 1 Darkvision: .5 Light Frame: .5, 1.5 Quick Footed: .5 Total= 8 (8.5 if unarmored)

Spring cleaning, of sorts

Overall I've been continuing to produce homebrew for my playgroup and have posted the results in a handful of areas. But I felt it was time to revisit my first in depth 5e homebrew project. With new experience and hopefully a better sense as a creator on the whole.

In this most recent pass, my goal was to provide a clear and concise homebrew version of a race from previous editions that I enjoyed greatly. I wanted to provide other 5e players with a race that provided an interesting RP experience in a game deeply rooted in a fantasy setting. Whether it was the fluff or the crunch of them, many players enjoyed the dynamic that the warforged as a race brought to the table. Their anatomy provided PC's with set of strengths and weaknesses that provided both player's and DM with new challenges to overcome. With this article I hope that I have provided a race option that is valuble enough to be even worth considering in terms of Balance and Fun. Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 09:39, 13 January 2017 (MST)

In a lot of ways this feels like the Lizardfolk from Volo's and I don't think that's a great comparison to build on. Living Construct does a lot of.. stuff. Some immunities, a resistance, no need to breathe. While the reduced healing is uncomfortable, most combat-healing is low level healing words at 0 HP so I'm not sure this is much of a counterweight. Even if it was, I'm generally opposed to countering racial features with penalties.

Just compare the Natural Armor of 13 + Dex to the Tactician's Living Armor of 12 + Dex/Prof: This seems to favor the lizardfolk but that'll change as you level. Even on a dex heavy build, Proficiency bonus eventually pushes ahead. Even at low level, a wizard (since you're an Int subrace) with Mage Armor can take the +1 AC option from Body of War to get ahead. And Living Armor is by far the worst of the three AC features on warforged.

Juggernaut's is surprisingly balanced; mostly keeping par with Heavy Armor. Solid Construction blows this away however (though I agree, temp hp is a better mechanic than something like Heavy Armor Mastery).

The Scout's Light Frame is Unarmored Defense with no second stat dependency AND the best benefit of the Skulker feat (presuming "can attempt a stealth check" means "can try to hide"). They're the fastest "small" race and can still rock Great Weapons. By level 13, a Dex fighter is at 20 ac and can still use a shield AND protection style (since Body of War says it counts as armor) to reach 23. Vaegrim (talk) 03:18, 3 December 2017 (MST)

I started this project in 2014 and have been fine tuning it ever since. The Prof bonus to AC has always been a factor of some sort with this race because I wanted to capture the warorged completely. The Volo lizardfolk are neat to say the least, but definitely not my inspiration. However, having 2 strikes from the wiki's major contributors has brought my attention back to this with a goal to fix my idea in a way that doesn't grind gears.

The 2 things that are in the race that often get highlighted as being bad counterweight are in place to preserve the feel of the original warforged. The 1/2 healing from spells and use of a kit for resting provide a sense of vulnerability to a race that's supposed to be a manufactured soldier. It may not sit well with many to have a nerf built into a race like this, but the reasoning sits as well with me as Kenku being only able to mimic and most most small races having 25ft movement. My decision on the specific mechanic of this are not absolute, but the desire to have a fluffy mechanic is.

To start with I nicked the +2 Con down to +1 to tone down some of the raw power of the race given its list resistances and immunities. Living Construct adjusted to read immunity to non-magical diseases to let go of some of raw defensive power. It doesn't make sense that the living construct can catch a cold, but contracting mummy-rot seems like a reasonable thing. The ability to be targeted as a construct and a humanoid is intended to be a double edged sword and to my knowledge seems overall accepted. Going to be writing this alongside an edit spree, just to provide background for potential A.D.D. comments and such.

Body of War as a whole was to help lay down some foundation for the primary feature of the race itself. I chose 12 + prof or dex to put it on par with other features that can be acquired before level 4. The release of lizardfolk and their combat-centric design build has helped me feel a little bit more comfortable with the idea of a naturally armored race. The warforged overall have 2 major things to their identity, they are living constructs and they have built on armor. A lot of the benefits of the original race have already been removed because of balance, I have even removed the immunity to exhaustion that could be expected. The idea that I am still flirting with is allowing them to always treat exhaustion as being 1 level lower or for an even weaker version, they simply can't die from exhaustion. But currently that's just an afterthought for what in my experience has been an extremely underutilized condition. But lets bring this race into more feasible territory before I fully consider such things.

I have removed the unarmored option from Body of war. I have replaced the Scouts AC formula with a +1 bonus to AC (like the UA ebberon warforged). Tactician formula changed to provide a nice boost without outshining PC's that invest into Dex to avoid a "why bother" scenario. Juggernaut AC base reduced to 13 + Prof, but I am uncertain of this change. It does still provide the intended goal of end-gaming with armor who's base if better than full-plate, but definitely not as drastically so (thats a good thing). One thing I do try to keep in mind when designing homebrew is to only operate based on game mechanics and class features. Magic items are not normally something that is to be considered when designing homebrew (IMO). MORE INBOUND AFTER SOME TIME --Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 18:40, 5 December 2017 (MST)

Playtesting

My party should be running into an enclave of Warforged as soon as the game gets underway (next week I hope), and most likely winding up with one as an NPC guide. I'll let you know how it works out. Again, good job. - Spanambula (talk) 08:40, 15 March 2017 (MDT)

Juggernaut tweaks

Thinking it over, I feel like the AC of 14 + Proficiency is just a hair too much. That gives you AC 20 at 17th level, up to AC 23 if you get a +3 enhancement to plating, which is 2 higher than you'd get with +3 plate. On the other hand, it starts you off with AC 16, which is what a fighter with chainmail has, so that's relatively in line with the normal power curve. Still, I might switch it to 13 + Prof, and start out a bit weaker but finish up a bit stronger. idk.

The other criticism is that the minimum healing feels too harsh of a penalty, and I don't get the rationale as to why juggernauts are more difficult to magically repair than scouts or tacticians. It would also apply to class abilities such as the Fighter's Second Wind, but wouldn't apply at all to class abilities like the Paladin's Lay on Hands or the Monk's Wholeness of Body, so it feels really unevenly applied. I'd leave the healing at 1/2, and give them some other drawback instead, like a 25-foot move speed due to size and weight, or standing from prone taking all your movement instead of the usual 1/2.

Lastly, always-on DR equal to your proficiency bonus to all melee damage feels too powerful. I'd change it to something more like: "Solid Construction: A Juggernaut's heavy armor protects it from stray blows, but can be overwhelmed by repeated, focused attacks. At the start of its turn a Juggernaut receives temporary hit points equal to its proficiency score." That gives you some damage reduction every turn, but not against everything for every attack.

That's all I got, let me know what you think. - Spanambula (talk) 09:43, 15 March 2017 (MDT)

First off, thank you for the review + use. It seems you have cornered most of my doubts in design for the most part. The AC will remain as is while I implement other changes. I agree that the minimal healing was a little too heavy handed. I also really like your suggestion of implementing a getup penalty.

For the issue of DR, the temp HP suggestion seems like a very solid mechanic that is already in use for printed material and UA documents as well. It trades out the raw power against physical damage types for a generalized durability. Kinda kicking myself for not seeing that sooner though... Again, thank you for your consideration and review. Also, my bad on being super late to this party. I also ported over the armor integration mechanic a friend requested.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 15:46, 27 November 2017 (MST)

Warforged Juggernaut Discussion

Why 13? Many other sets for a warforged Juggernaut has 18 base starting which yes is overpowered for a LvL.1. But at 13 its barely considered a juggernaut because of the fact of it having just about the same ac as a tactician. I think that one extra point(bumping it to 14) is reasonable. because of the fact that it will be tankier than a tactician,which makes sense. But not super overpowered because no DM will want to have a LvL1 that cannot be touched but can reason with the fact that he can be a large tank,with a lot of disadvantages like, Electrical attacks,acid attacks and many more.

It's superior to ringmail at 1st level and ends up +1 over Plate by 17th. Heavy Plating is a consistent scaling bonus that's slightly better than Heavy Armor proficiency WITHOUT any required ability scores (where the other two have varying levels of dex commitment necessary). A warforged tactician who dumps Dex has a 16 AC when the juggernaut has a 19. In my opinion it's one of the best ways of balancing a natural armor feature for a race and a remarkably clever solution. Vaegrim (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2017 (MST)

Ah ok, I just needed to see other peoples points on this. However I'd say that it could possibly be a bit overpowered in both cases due to some players creating a warforged juggernaut as a cleric character which allows them to start with a shield. So technically they could start with 17 ac due to proficiency and shield. Unless they go life domain and have proficiency in heavy armor. Which would add a proficiency bonus correct? That would mean they are starting with 19ac.Unless the starting bonus to the armor somewhat negs the effect of heavy armor profeciency I realize that this would make my last question sound a bit off and now makes no sense

Also please bear in mind that the option to integrate armor that you are proficient with is an option for the warforged. This can allow them to have that 16 starting AC with starting gear if they are given the time to integrate. The biggest issue was the final number that pushed the Jug a +2 above the normally available fullplate option. Making the base 13 + prof helped curb a lot of late game bound accuracy issues. The Armor integration option allows for early game coverage within bounds of the game. Hope that this helps. Also, please try and use the signature button more there LordCreate99 --Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2017 (MST)

Super Stoked

So I'm floored, WotC just released their version of the warforged for the second time around and it appears that several of the major mechanics that I use in my homebrew iteration of them are present. The subraces, the proficiency bonus to AC, and armor integrations to name a few. Granted their system is cleaner than mine in some ways, like the subraces not being restricted to certain armors and the proficiency requirements to have certain AC formulas (solid move imo), but I will be vocalizing my own experiences with this project in the resulting survey. Sorry I know this is a butt-ton of self stroking, but I'm really happy that once again, one of my homebrew designs was on the money for what is expected from the game makers themselves. What else do you guys think of the newest UA release of the warforged.--Gr7mm Bobb (talk) 12:34, 28 July 2018 (MDT)