Talk:Mobile Glaive (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Power Attack

can you really power attack touch attacks? i know Complete arcane lists feats that can be used with spells and PA isn't one of them--NameViolation 06:05, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Can you really create posts without capitalization, punctuation, or titles? --Ghostwheel 06:21, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

hey, i used a question mark. but you didn't answer the question. I can't find anything anywhere that says you can power attack with touch attacks (except for weapons that let you treat an attackas a touch attack a few times a day). so can we start power attacking inflict spells and shocking grasp now? also how are you adding str to damage with melee touch attacks?

and in all honesty, i find titles unnecessary when theres still 1 topic, and capitalization is over rated on teh interwebz. especially with a half busted keyboard and no funds to replace it. --NameViolation 08:15, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

You may power attack with any weapon, including weapon-like spells. So yes. -- Eiji Hyrule 12:46, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

but touch spells are considered light weapons, and you can't power attack with light weapons. eldrich glaive is considered a touch spell, not a 1 or 2 handed weapon. i would have thought complete arcane would have mentioned power attack when they listed the feats from the ph that can be used with spells they listed precise shot, but not power attack. still don't know how str is getting added to damage with a touch spell, but no one seems to like my thoughts or question so i'll just shut up i guess:( --NameViolation 16:41, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

This actually might be a valid point, but it's possible it's one of the gray RAW/RAI areas. If you can cite your sources (where touch spells are considered light weapons, where you can't PA with light weapons), your arguments would be a lot more compelling. Go go go! -- Jota 17:32, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

um its in the power attack feat, in the srd

Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

i'm still looking for a direct quote on the light weapon, but since you can finesse with them and only take the light weapon penalty on TWF, and you don't add strength to damage it reasons that they are light weapons.

also this is still a spell, and power attack doesn't add to spell damage, even if its a melee touch attack, touch attacks don't result in melee damage rolls, they result in a spell effect that causes spell damage and power attack also specifically adds to melee damage

still trying to figure out where strength to damage is coming from. can some one please explain that.--NameViolation 18:02, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses. You can even use a number of combat-enhancing feats from the Player’s Handbook to improve the effectiveness of weaponlike spells, as noted in Chapter 3 of this book.

All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bard’s inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell.

-Pg 85, Complete Arcane --Tavis McCricket 18:26, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Page 72 of Complete Arcane goes into specific enumeration of the feats that can be applied to weaponlike spells. PA is not in that list. It is possible, but extremely unlikely IMO, that the lack of PA is an oversight from that list of allowed options. The list does, however, include Weapon Finesse and states "You can treat touch spells as light weapons...". Which is not the same as saying that they are light weapons, but the implication that they are closer to those than one handed weapons and the lack of enumeration of the PA option indicates that the intent is for you to not PA with a weaponlike spell (which includes eldritch blasts). - TarkisFlux 18:59, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

So then we have shown that melee touch attacks don't get bonus damage from Strength, and that also they likely don't qualify for bonus damage from Power Attack. Is this likely to get any more conclusive?--Tavis McCricket 19:22, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

1. Spells are not necessarily light weapons. You can also weapon finesse the rapier and the elven courtblade (*gasp* a two-handed weapon which you can also power attack with).
2. Eldritch Glaive isn't your normal spell--it conjures an actual weapon into your hands. Note the ability to make AoOs, inability to be used with a held weapon, and that it says specifically that it takes on physical form--even if you're limited to full attacks with it. This would indicate that you treat it as a normal two-handed weapon, and thus add Str to damage.
3. Saying that you can't power attack with touch attacks is completely absurd. Wraithstrike, Emerald Razor, Deep Impact... need I go on?
4. I see nowhere that it says explicitly that you can't power attack with either spells or spell-like abilities, since they're not mentioned specifically to be light weapons (and thus should be assumed to be the default, one-handed weapons). If we look at it from a game design standpoint, I don't think allowing PA with such spells is going to change much--how many casters put 13 into Str, are in melee most of the time, have the BAB for Power Attack to make much of a difference, AND are willing to take the feat?

Tl;dr: RAW never says that you can't do the above. --Ghostwheel 19:50, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

but we just pointed out it does. CA says All such spells deal damage as spells, not weapons, so Strength modifiers to damage and magical effects that increase weapon damage (such as the bard’s inspire courage ability and the prayer spell) don’t increase damage from a weaponlike spell. that applies to spell like abilities too. Emerald razor and deep impact, and even wraith strike are a different story all together. you also threaten surrounding squares if you hold the charge on a touch arrack, and you don't get strength on spell or spell-like based damage. if eldrich glaive were intended to add str to damage it would say so. but you don't seem to like to be contradicted and probably won't read this either--NameViolation 20:02, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Hostility is not an aspect of intelligent discourse. We can discuss this without getting fired up.--Tavis McCricket 20:31, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Can't speak for spells like Shocking Grasp, but I figured the reason why you can PA with Eldritch Glaive specifically is because it "acts as a glaive", giving us a point of reference to any effects of how the weapon should be as. Likewise the druid's Flame Blade "acts as a scimitar", and I would expect you to be able to PA with it as if it was a scimitar. This is not so much for your Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, or Produce Flame through, and I would figure those are "light". -- Eiji Hyrule 20:38, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

As for your points Ghost:

1. You're right, we haven't proven they are or aren't light weapons. And yes, there are specific exceptions that can be finessed that aren't light weapons. But they are just that, exceptions. Until one can prove what catergory a melee touch attack falls into, it's purely anecdotal evidence either way.
2. Eldritch Glaive does not summon a weapon, it forms your blast into one. Whether or not this is a functional or thematic difference, I don't know. The entry is vague.
3. As for the spells/powers you listed the key is in the wording, You can resolve your attack with a melee weapon as a touch attack. To resolve as a touch attack does not make it one. It's still a melee attack. Eldritch Glaive is a touch attack, not a melee attack (as per the entry).
4. You're right, I can't find anywhere that explicitly states you can't Power Attack with a spell, but is ommitted from the list of feats that can be used with weapon-like spells. It may not change much, but I find applying PA to touch attack mechanically unsound.

Tl;dr: It also never says you can do it.--Tavis McCricket 20:47, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

actually EG states "your target is affected as if struck by your eldrich blast" and eldrich blast doesn't include str. if it were intent on adding str it would say so. otherwise if we get hung up on what rules don't say, then water is never defined. also in a thread about power attack and touch attacks on enworld, the concensus is you cant power attack flameblade either. its a spell, not a melee weapon, and it doesn't add str to damage.--NameViolation 21:05, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

The consensus on ENWorld is pretty irrelevant. All we've shown is that you attack with some weaponlike spells as melee touch attacks, you don't get to PA with those, and that the default eldritch blast is a weaponlike spell. We've not shown any 1:1 correspondence between melee touch attacks and weapon like spells (and I don't think there is one to show), so there's no reason to say that you can't PA with any melee touch attacks. I missed that glaive's being used earlier (cause I'm doing too much at once right now), but since it says you strike as if with a reach weapon, and you can PA with those, you can PA with this even though you can't PA with shocking grasp. The on-hit text appears to be a base damage indication, not an exclusive limit. - TarkisFlux 21:07, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

it doesn't act as a glaive, it "appears similar to a glaive". never gets glaives stats and does damage as eldrich blast. but if we can power attack any touch attack can we just start power attackin non spell touch attacks, and have fighters poking for 20 damage all day?

The ENWorld folks need to learn how to read a spell entry:

You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage.

It plainly states you can't add Str, no consensus is needed.--Tavis McCricket 21:13, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

exactly. if its immaterial how is power attack working? swing the fire harder and hotter? precision damage would be different (so that argument would be irrelivent)--NameViolation 21:16, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how it works. We don't need to generate fluff or a magic-physics based interpretation for it. The default rules say you don't get PA on a default eldritch blast, which is not the case right now. There's two interpretations of the glaive ability, one which focuses on the fact that it's a physical thing that functions like a two-handed melee weapon that just happens to strike as a melee touch weapon (and thus allows PA, like a number of other melee touch weapons) and one which focuses on the damage clause where it says it deals damage as your eldritch blast (with which you don't normally get to PA). I think the PA allowing interpretation is the stronger one since they go so far to explain the differences from a normal blast, but there's ground for both sides here. - TarkisFlux 22:31, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

I do have the fluff reason why PA works on weapon-like spells (or at least things like Flame Blade, Thunderlance, and Eldritch Glaive). You're making a deep penetrating strike. You don't add Str because it's basically a lightsaber, but if you dive a lightsaber deep into someone's body, it's better than a mere swipe of the blade. That fits with PA's motif too, since it's implied doing so is reckless (easiler to miss) if you're trying to maximize your damage, keeping the damaging goods on the enemy longer and deeper when they can more easily slip out of the way of your obvious lunge. -- Eiji Hyrule 01:30, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

quicken

i noticed when you're quickening you are doubleing damage. now this eldrich glaive is cast as part of a full round attack and at your bab you get 3 attacks, but it doesn't grant you another full round attack. i can see getting 1 blast off with quicken (like a normal quickened eldrich blast), then the full round attack with eldrich glaive, but not a free full round attack (3 melee touch attacks) as a swift action. is there something i'm not quite getting? i don't think quickening an eldrich glaive actually does anything--NameViolation 18:33, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Your eldritch blast takes on physical substance, appearing similar to a glaive. As a full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as it wielding a reach weapon. If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). Unlike hideous blow (Complete Arcane 134), you cannot combine your eldritch glaive with damage from a held weapon.

Furthermore, until the start of your next turn, you also threaten nearby squares as if wielding a reach weapon, and you can make attacks of opportunity with your eldritch glaive. These are melee touch attacks.

If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can (as part of the full-round action) make as many attacks with your eldritch glaive as your base attack bonus allows. For example, a 12th-level warlock could attack twice, once with a base attack bonus of+6, and again with a base attack bonus of +1.

-Pg 82, Dragon Magic

I might actually have to side with Ghost on this. The casting is part of a full-round action, not a full-atack. The term "full-attack" isn't used in the entry. Personally, I wouldn't allow it, but it doesn't seem to be in violation of the rules of the invocation. Oddly enough, the rules for the feat Quick Spell and Quicken Spell-Like Ability differ in that one won't affect full-round actions, and the other will. Again, not something I'd allow, but as written it works.

However, there is a limit to how powerful of an Eldritch Blast you could use, because you can't quick a spell-like ability with an effective spell level of 6th or higher.--Tavis McCricket 19:36, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

actually EB was erratta'd into a 1t level spelll-like, upped only when modified by other invocations, so its works to quicken and empower spell like--NameViolation 20:22, July 15, 2010 (UTC)

Sweet merciful Ao, you're right.--Tavis McCricket 20:34, July 15, 2010 (UTC)