Talk:Forgefire Adept (3.5e Class)

Opinion

I just skimmed through the class and I'm loving the concept. I look forward to see it complete! --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 08:57, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm still thinking about some of the points, but it's close to completion so if you see anything you think could be different please feel free to suggest!! --Eromythic (talk) 15:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Sure! Here I am: I'm not as good as others are at balancing and assessing optimization, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

-You chose to bind invocations to Charisma, a reminder of dragonfire adept. Maybe it would be more sensible to use Intelligence? Given that they are skillful crafters. Or maybe Wisdom, if the source of their power is divine (I prefer Int though). I feel like Cha is overused.

-You gave it a d8, but some of its abilities seem to point out that it may engage in melee combat. Maybe a d10 could be appropriate (I envision them as bulky mage-smiths)? Or Embertouched could give 1 extra hit point per class level?

-There are a few dead levels. Though they are a minor occurence, maybe the may be filled with some item creation feat and bonus/features to/for crafting and crafting magic items? Like Create Wondrous Item and Magic Weapons and Armors, given through something similar to Imbue Item of a warlock, but tied to a Craft check. It feels natural for them to have something like this and it prevent players having to use one of their feats to have those, as it doesn't offer any bonus feat during its progression.

I read the class more accurately and I confirm my original review: it's great! New invocations and breath effects are creative and nice, they are potent but require an appropriate cost (such as full-round action, a time between uses, etc.), good work on them. Also, I really like that you gave it some healing. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 00:07, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for the breakdown!!

-I completely agree on the point regarding Charisma. I felt the same way while writing it and while I would thematically feel inclined to tie it to Wis due to the divine flavour, Int would probably make the whole thing more consistent and makes a lot of sense as well. Indeed Cha was chosen only because it was the original ability used in the dragonfire adept.

-I think a d10 makes sense. The hit point in Embertouched is there mostly as a remnant of what Dragonfire adepts have and I think it's fine leaving it at that. Instead of building some extra hit points in this ability we can simply have them in the base dice and leave it at that.

-I guess that makes sense. I'll give this some thought and see what I come up with.

Thank you for your kind words :) I'll make the hit die change now, the other things I'll have to ponder over for a bit longer. --Eromythic (talk) 04:37, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, no pressure! These are only suggestions, you are the author so you decide, mines are only personal advices and preferences --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 07:56, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

I've made a number of changes following your suggestions! I moved the casting stat to Wis, which made more sense to me flavor-wise, and added some extra abilities in the "dead" levels to give a greater sense of progression as you mentioned. I also tweaked a bit some invocations that I felt were out of place (the summoning one and one that had to do with crafting but was made redundant with the added abilities) and basically replaced them with "party support" invocations. --Eromythic (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Nice! I like them a lot! The Summon Spirits was nice in flavour but I guess it was a bit vague, and I love the two support invocations you made in place of it!

I have a just to point out that the item creation feats you gave wouldn't work until level 9th, when the FFA gains Magic Forge (which is perfect btw), as it doesn't cast spells (sorry, maybe it is like this because I was unclear before, or maybe you wanted to delay the ability to create magic items, but in that case gaining the Magic Weapons and Armors feat at 4th level doesn't make sense). I'd suggest to give it the Magic Forge feature at level 4th only for armors and weapons and then at 14th level for rings (or whichever levels yoy think are appropriate). This leaves you with the 9th level empty again. I'd recover the Summon Spirits invocation, making it into a spell-like ability with uses per day (that increase with levels?) that lets the FFA summon earth and fire elementals as per summon monsters spells of appropriate level, maybe even going into gate territory at high levels (maybe I'm going a bit ahead of myself here)?

At last, some quality of life improvements: I noticed that you linked some feature in the class progression table to other pages (item creation feats, damage reduction). I'd bind those to the feature explanation below, and maybe put links to other pages there and not in the table.

Thanks for your attention! -- The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 18:16, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for all your feedback and kind words, they're really really appreciated! I will do that change to the links, which makes total sense. Regarding the feats, it was my understanding that even without spells it should be able to use the craft magic weapons and armor to provide enhancement bonuses (provided the caster level is at least three times the total enhancement bonus), and we're just missing on the half regarding special effects, which is effectively gained at level 9 with the Magic Forge feature. Is this not the case? --Eromythic (talk) 18:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Your remark on item creation was unexpected: I never looked at it like that. I always assumed that you must invariably be able to cast spells (and invocations don't count), besides having a caster level and the right feat, to create magic items. But your observation might be true, I have no precise idea if it's right or not. Someone more expert than me should answer.

With a quick search I found that:

-The SRD says: "Creating some armor may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details." about magic armors (and the same for weapons). Which, to me, seems to imply that, as a rule, all magic armors/weapons need spellcasting (not only caster level) to be crafted. But I also found this forum that seems to prove your point: "However, creating magic armor, shields, and weapons with special abilities beyond simple enhancement bonuses nearly always requires casting spells" (it doesn't let me post the link).

Maybe you are right, in that case my previous point on item creation falls. P.S. I'm avoiding to rate the page just because I'm waiting it to be complete. Expect a favorable review at that point! -- The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 19:18, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

As I'm here: I have two other advices: 1) I like the Granite Heart invocation. Can I suggest a greater version for 50% chance of avoidin crits and sneak attacks and +8 against stunning? 2) Re-reading the Brittle Brand invocation it feels OP: it can be done every round, easily doing 6-10 points of damage to Constitution. It can be devastating, as it may be cumulative(?). I'd say it should be reduced or limited in its uses against the same opponent or add a save. Also, now maybe it should be tied to Wisdom? --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 20:10, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

I'll leave the item creation as is in that case, unless someone else pitches in with a new take on it. I feel comfortable upping the numbers on Granite Heart, I actually was thinking it felt a bit underwhelming when going through the invocations earlier today. As for Brittle Brand, the intent was for each enemy to have only one such brand at any time. I'll change the wording to reflect this. You also correctly pointed out I forgot to change the modifier to wisdom. After these changes I'll give me one week to see if I come up with anything else before setting the class as complete, since I am pretty happy with it now, thanks to your guidance :) --Eromythic (talk) 21:45, 26 March 2021 (UTC)