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→Mechanics: Grammar check
==Mechanics==
The flavor was touched upon by other people, and I still agree 150%v with them, and do not think for a second that im I'm letting the flavor part go. Even though this class deal deals with a delicate subject matter in a way that leave leaves a lot of people uncomfortable, that is no excuse for bad mechanics. We will go in reverse, unlike how it is typically done , so we will give a go to the capstone at first. No , in fact, let 's just review the last abilities.
'''Everlasting Dream:''' First off, DR 25 is total BS. Make it equal to character level. I don't get why it get gets a stance, a powerful one at that. It get gets tons of tentacles and improved grab, OK. It become becomes slow as shit. Alright... oh , I see the tentacle naughtiness mechanics are back, although sterilized.
'''Everlasting Dream Part Deux:''' It start starts off with some weird slam attack nonsense, okay. Then it inflict inflicts madness for some reason, why? Are they like, uploading eldritch knowledge directly in the mind of the creature they grapple? Because otherwise it make makes no sense, ; madness is not trauma. Oh well , moving on. Then there 's a fort save with a '''MASSIVE ''' DC, like that 's higher than level 9 spells and it 's based off a stat they give get a +8 bonus to just by transforming. What , they get half their HD to that? That 's usually to make up for the lack of spell levels on abilities! Now at 15 , that 's DC 31 BASE (count +4 con mod), and that's HUGE. You are looking at DC 40 most of the time, even with a single tentaclestentacle. Alright alright, now what it does?
Nauseated... for 24 hours? That's a joke , right? That 's a save or die, since if they fail , they won't be able to escape the grapple anymore. More like nat 20 or die given the fuckhuge DC. Oh , there 's also a will save... same DC... that 's bad. Alright , what does it doesdo? Frightened... for a week? Do you realize how insane this is!? Because here is what being frightened does:
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It will attempt fleeing, for a week. A week! I don't even know how that workworks!
: '''Verdict:''' Everlasting Dream is completely borked. Also , seriously , don't try to put mechanics for tentacle rape in there please.
: '''Suggestion:''' Scrap ability. Rewrite.
I do not think this should be a class. I agree with Surgo here, this look looks like it should be a unique monster. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 14:38, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
:The DC isn't ''that'' massive. The DC 20 is simply accounting for the 10 levels in Mogeko Snatcher, as 10 is its maximum level. It's just 10+10. The ½ level part? ''Mogeko Snatcher levels aren't included in that''. Really, it's calculated the same way as a prestige class's class ability. Also, don't forget that a Mogeko Snatcher has to be a Mogeko, which has a −2 racial penalty to [[Constitution ]] by default.
:The Everlasting Dream feature is based on King mogeko's abomination form. ''Iron Flesh Sheathe'' is there because I wanted to include a mechanic to reflect how Defect Mogeko was beaten; he couldn't pull the swords out after stabbing King mogeko, leaving him wide open to a pummeling.
:I intentionally left it ambiguous just how the effects of the grappling are inflicted, to leave DMs free to come up with something other than tentacle rape. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 18:29, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
:: I misread, still 10 should be 20 levels not 10. usually it 's 10 + 1/2 ½ HD (so you get +5 from your level , not +10) + relevant ability mod. A 9th level spell is 19 + relevant ability score mod, so the DC of everlasting dream is higher by default. Still , the debilitating status effect effects last for far too long , and I see no reason to add madness to that as well.
::As for madness , here is a concern of mine: you see , about using madness, while I like stuff using it , you need to take in consideration that it is a very optional rule. I made monsters, prestige classes, feats , and spell spells based around the system , but I did not adapt any existing material to it. Not every game will use dark insight and madness, but there is no reason to be a Black Healer or a Witness of the Old Game God in such a game. Material Materials integrating madness and dark insight are simply not readily usable in games not suing using those rules, and not all games will.
::Right now , it 's way too strong, you become a nearly invincible grapple machine that inflict people with nigh impossible saving throws and make people go insane. Although all of this gave me an idea... --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 19:06, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
:::That's kind of the point. Defect Mogeko almost beat King mogeko, but then he used Everlasting Dream and it all went downhill from there. And Mogeko Snatcher requires 8 ranks <s>[[SRD:Listen Skill|in 3 ]] [[SRD:Spot Skill|separate ]] [[SRD:Survival Skill|skills]]</s> [[SRD:Listen Skill|three]] [[Scent (3.5e Skill)|out]] [[SRD:Search Skill|of]] [[SRD:Spot Skill|five]] [[SRD:Survival Skill|skills]], making it level 5 minimum — often higher in practice, seeing as Mogekos have a −4 racial penalty to [[Intelligence ]] and therefore have their skill points shot to hell. At character level 15, damage reduction 25 is far from insurmountable — if all else fails, you can spam [[SRD:Magic Missile|''magic missile'' ]] and stuff like that.
:::Also, the Mogeko Snatcher in Everlasting Dream form kind of ''is'' an eldritch abomination. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 20:16, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
:::: Loyalty to the source material is no excusesexcuse. The problem with everlasting dream is not just the DR, which is 10 + character level when you get it. It is a huge buff, size cat increase, +8 str/con , and 7 tentacles attack is already pretty damn good. Then you get DR 25 with magic, silver , AND good , which is really really hard to surmount, especially for a rogue or a volley archer. Then the 7 tentacles have improved grab and double reach, which is real crazy if you increase your size cat again. Then you get to say "Fuck you, you die" to anything you grapple. Then you get all [[SRD:Abomination|this]]. Telepathy 1000 ft., blindsight 500 ft. all of your spell-like abilities are now 20th level, epic feat selection, constant non-detection, immunities, resistances, high [[SRD:Spell Resistance|spell resistance]], [[SRD:True Seeing|''true seeing '']] at will. You literally get two laundry list of abilities, and if I'm not mistaken in the source material (I might), it was defeated by a little girl. Like seriously, most of that shit wouldn't be kosher at level 20, never mind 15! --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 20:26, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
::::: Agree with Lez here. Add onto that, that at level 15, a rogue is doing 4 attacks per round, each attack doing around 10d6 damage, averaging to 35. That's supposed to be great damage from one of the strongest strikers in the game when they get off their strongest attacks, and instead of doing 140 damage, all this creature takes is 40... if all attacks hit. Honestly, 3.5 did well when it reduced DR from around 20 max to around 10 max. If you want massive DR 10 is more than enough, else even something like a [[SRD:Twelve-Headed_Hydra|12-headed hydra]] (which is a few CR lower, but SHOULD still be able to do SOMETHING) has no chance of damaging it at all.
::::: tl;dr: Change DR to 10 static. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 21:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
::::::<nowiki>*</nowiki>looks up abomination subtype* '''''Holy crap!!!''''' That is... erk... much, ''much'' stronger than I thought it was. I'll tweak Everlasting Dream so that the Mogeko Snatcher is treated as having the abomination subtype (so, for instance, it's immune to [[Mindbreak (3.5e Variant Rule)|mindbreak]]) without actually having abomination traits, or at least having them in an altered, less "holy crap that's an epic character what is this s*** doing on someone at level 15" form. I think I could also tone down the duration of the status effects. The thing to keep in mind, however, is that you only get to stay in abomination form for 1 round per character level, once per day, and when you're forced out of it, you become fatigued. That's why the buffs are so huge; they're only relevant for a tiny portion of a day. (So, I think they're roughly equal in power to [[Mogeko Sage (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)#Savior of the Species|+4 bonuses to everything that are active all the time]].)
::::::Also, I don't think it's going to be ''too'' difficult for a level 15 character to get their hands on a weapon that's magic, silver, and good. By this point in the game, equipment is expected to be pretty damn impressive.
:::::::::::Also, isn't it the DM's job to make sure that the PCs' opponents are a credible threat to them? If the DM forgets about what bypasses a PC's damage reduction, then the DM is screwing up.
:::::::::::If it's ''really'' a problem, I could drop the DR down to ½ the Mogeko Snatcher's character level. However, I want it to be really high — ''much'' higher than the damage reduction of a [[SRD:Barbarian|barbarian ]] — because it's actually ''possible'' to bypass without resorting to something that completely ignores damage reduction (like, say, a [[SRD:Fireball|''fireball'']], or any blast spell, really), and, more importantly, it's '''''temporary'''''. Abomination form can only be activated once per day, and it only lasts for one round per character level. And when it's over, it renders the Mogeko Snatcher [[SRD:Fatigued|fatigued]], leaving it vulnerable. The relatively brief duration and vulnerability at the end justify making the DR difficult to overcome; it needs to have an effect that's not merely noticeable, but ''effective'' while it lasts. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:03, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::::I'm also considering dropping the base DCs of the Everlasting Dream abilities by 2, as the formula I used to determine them are based on an epic DC formula (see page 206 of the <u>Dungeon Master's Guide</u>; it's the formula for determining the DC of a prestige class's class abilities, only with levels in other classes substituted for levels beyond 10th, since Mogeko Snatcher, being a racial paragon class rather than a prestige class, can't actually be advanced to levels beyond 10th). Since Mogeko Snatcher requires a minimum character level of 5th to qualify, I was thinking of basically taking the first five non-Mogeko Snatcher levels out of the DC calculation, to make the DC more in line with the DC of a 10th-level prestige class's class feature (and progressing from there as additional character levels are taken). I may also decide to have levels before character level 21st not count — again, to more closely emulate the prestige class progression formula I'm mimicking. Are either of those good ideas? --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:17, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
