Talk:Tholan's Pointed Digits (3.5e Spell)

Magic Missile

Size boosting shenanigans and huge casters aside (and range I guess, which is wtf? on a level 1 IMO), how is this not worse than Magic Missile? And even including those things, how is this even as good as MM at higher levels when your missile production doesn't keep up? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 18:10, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I thought about that myself. I think the intent was that you can fire two darts from level 1 (seeing as how you can make two dart attacks at level 1), and then damage scales more appropriately with your level with the scaling enhancements even before size boosts and the like. The trouble is of course down to ambiguities in how many darts you can throw, so I am now looking for suggestions on how to clear that up. - TG Cid (talk) 21:00, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Your BAB derived thing in the spell text doesn't suggest 2 at level 1, it suggests that you get 1 at 1 and 2 at 11 (unless you have some gish build). It doesn't imply that you can TWF with them, or rapid shot with them, or anything else. So that should be cleared up, or possibly just discarded in favor of a set progression. Probably the latter. 2 per CL is probably fair, though that gives the spell a hard cap of 5th level when you run out of fingers.

The running out of fingers thing is potentially weird though. Can you still cast spells with an S component without fingers? What about without half your fingers? From a fluff standpoint this spell seems to be hurting your ability to cast other spells later, even if the mechanics for it are lacking. And that's a bit weird to me. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:58, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I adjusted the range to Medium (on par with Magic Missile now), hopefully cleared up the TWF thing while disallowing haste or Rapid Shot, since the former wouldn't apply to both hands and the latter is perhaps too good of a benefit without attack roll adjustments. To top it off, most of the gish casters who would probably get the most out of this feat are also the ones with the most incentive to take Rapid Shot anyway, so it seems like a double-punishment for more normal casters. I also added in that your fingers regrow at the beginning of your next turn, so it would only affect you until then as far as being unable to do finger-related things goes, with the damage still being a drawback that could be gotten rid of in the future. The regeneration could also be immediate so there is no mechanical drawback aside from the damage and the fluff is still maintained. - TG Cid (talk) 05:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I still think it's missing something. Level breakdown:

• 1 - You deal 2 x 1d4 piercing damage (no magic, round down rule) to up to two targets, take 2 points of damage. More damage to them than MM, but also more damage to you. About as good as MM.
• 3 - You deal 2 x 1d4+1 piercing damage to up to two targets, take 2 points of damage. Worse than MM because you take damage to deal the same, unless you want piercing damage instead of awesomeforce for some reason or they have shield or some other MM canceling item.
• 5 - You deal 2 x 1d4+1 piercing damage to up to two targets, take 2 points of damage. Worse than MM in damage to you and them, except in edge cases.

It does not get better. You can mitigate that slightly with multiple size boosts or by being a bigger caster in the first place (which sort of annoys me, but meh) or by getting a divine power style "you have BAB" buff, but you're still basically only keeping up with MM. And spending other spells so that you can keep up with MM is not a VH thing to do. While I don't care for long range on level 1 spells, if you're set on the BAB and fingers and darts and everything else, putting it back is probably fine. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 07:11, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not dead set on keeping it BAB-based; I think the original draft of the spell had each dart dealing damage equal to the dart damage plus your caster level in bonus damage instead of the enhancement bonus. That may be the solution that allows it to scale well across the board even with BAB. Another option would be to keep the damage as is and then increase the number of darts you can fire based on your caster level (like, one dart per two CL to cap at ten, for instance). But then it's damage is still generally inferior to magic missile at low levels, which is when it matters. So I'm not sure how to reconcile it without the adding caster level to damage, which could potentially justify all the damage you would take as a result of the spell.

I'm also not totally set on damage being a drawback, but it made sense for the caster losing their fingers (however briefly) and my ulterior motive was to potentially use this for the Liber Demonica's Pain domain. It also serves to differentiate it from magic missile in a way that isn't just making it a higher-damage spell. I must admit, though, I am somewhat attached to the idea of someone being able to assassinate from afar with his finger. - TG Cid (talk) 15:32, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Nitpicking

Shouldn't the target be self? You're not transmuting other creatures; you're using magic to fire off your fingers. This would also make the range personal, so the description would have to say medium range for the attacks.

Also, the duration isn't quite right. At the very least, since your fingers regrow the next round and not instantaneously, give it a (see text).--Quey (talk) 18:08, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Just thought of this, what happens if you have gloves/gauntlets on? Rings?--Quey (talk) 19:12, 26 September 2012 (UTC)