Talk:Chorister (3.5e Class)

This is just a quick note about the class for those who are curious as to my goal with it. The Bard is overall my favorite class in D&D, but in my years of playing, it's signature class feature Bardic Music, is woefully underused. Outside of Inspire Courage, I have never seen any of the performances used by other players or had them ask me to play a song for them. While I realize that Spells are King in 3.5, I wanted to make a class that had an interesting mechanic unique to them. I also made it a point to allow the chorister the option of taking Bardic feats and PrCs to improve and add to their musical repertoire. The ability to customize the spell list a little via the choice of domains was also there to allow the player to differentiate one chorister from another.

I will try to check the page for any questions or comments that you might have about the class. At this point the class is mechanically finished, though if you think that something needs to be tweaked, don't be afraid to speak up. At this point the only thing I am concerned with working on is the RP elements.

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-Verse of Valor and Temerarious Council aren't that bad are they? At level 18, they only change AC by 9 and 8 respectively. Would making the change a typed holy or unholy make any balance difference? -Words of Restoration might seem great, but it's mostly there as a panic button. Remember that while you are using Scriptures, the Chorister isn't casting spells or making full attacks. They are sacrificing a lot of their actions just to keep everyone else on their feet. As for the xp expenditure, Greater Restoration only costs 500xp, which at 14 level is negligible. -Verse of Ardor is another one that is useful, but not gamebreakingly so. The performance only lets you ignore the effects, it doesn't cure or make them immune, so once the song stops, they feel it. Freedom of Movement for the party is another great one, but the performance only lasts 1 minute, so it doesn't work for long term travel. -Words of the Immaculate Mind is useful against creatures with a constant aura or who likes to throw around spells/effects that attack you mentally I agree. But if the Chorister has to devote their actions to countering it, the DM is justified in using such a creature. The chorister can really save the party's bacon if one or more of them get hit with a mental whammy. -Remonstration of Sloth was indeed powerful, I changed the DC to 10+1/2Chorister Level+Cha. That should definitely make it more manageable, though still powerful. If an opponent can teleport, they can probably make the save, but it isn't guaranteed. -Words of Equality is another bit of help for the melee. It really sucks when you play as a mundane and get thwarted by incorporeal types. As with most of the performances though, spending time using this means you aren't using a spell or other performance. -Denying the Leyline was changed to opposed caster level checks. -Roar of the Just was meant to mimic Smite, got the bonuses turned around. Have since fixed it. -Hymn of Exhilaration is powerful, on that I agree with you. Using it does require a resource that is tied up in just about every other class ability the chorister has though, so it shouldn't be getting used every combat. I did add in a clause that it can only be used once per round. -Deny Fortune, kept the reroll but removed the penalty. -Voice of the Soul isn't one I'm super worried about. The ability only works on outsiders who have an alignment subtype opposing yours, so unless your campaign is "ALL DEVILS AND DEMONS ALL THE TIME" it shouldn't be too bad. -Voice of the Heavens was meant to be impressive. I mean, you stayed in the class all the way! Good going! Even so, when compared to the power of 9th level spells, I don't exactly tremble at the thought of it being abused.

Feedback

Alrighty, let's put on our inspecting glasses and check this out. First thing I see is a lack of class abilities--now that's not exactly bad, because you still get spells, but some sort of minor flavor/story/fluff stuff might be nice instead of just having massive gaping holes in that-there levels.

Let's look over the spells now. For the most part I agree with them, the only minor problem I would have is that you're giving the CoDzilla 3 for the cleric, which are Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Sure, they're gotten pretty late in the progression, but with the right feats (Divine Metamagic - Persistent Spell) they turn the character into something that makes martial adepts cry themselves to sleep. Apart from those, the only ones that might be an issue are those that definitely bump you up to VH-level, rather than H, which are the save-or-sucks (Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse). Those aside, I think I understand where you're going with the spells, and I like it for the most part.

On to class abilities:

• Aura/Spells banned: Meh. It's fine. I dislike the alignment system, but it's there and you can have that. No biggy
• Domain: This probably pushes it into VH territory with the plethora of domains available, granting spells like Polymorph and the like. Prolly not kosher if you want to keep it H rather than bumping it to VH, which would make this fine.
• Holy Scripture: So basically like bard song.
• Verse of Valor: Ooooh, straight bump on the RNG, and increases even more as you level. No bueno in my mind--I would keep it static at +3 at the least, and rework it at the most. Something like temporary HP to all allies equal to caster level might be nice. If you keep it as-is, expect to face primarily monsters that target saves at higher levels as the DM will give up on using attacking monsters.
• Temerarious Council: See Verse of Valor--straight up changes to the RNG should be VERY sparsely used, and will may force the DM to bring their own AC-buffing stuff so that monsters can stay relevant compared to the attackers in the party. At least this one has a save, though I don't like the all-or-nothing nature of it since it means that if they save, your turn's for the most part wasted.
• Words of Restoration: I like this for the most part... except for giving out spells automatically and constantly that require an XP cost normally. However, as-is, expect never to face someone using ability damage, drain, poison, disease, and so on at higher levels. At that point the DM may just make stuff up and say that greater restoration doesn't affect it. I'd also make the fast healing improve faster.
• Verse of Ardor: See above again about DM not using specific things that this will automatically counter. While it's good, it might be so good to the point where the DM begins to pull some pretty cheap tactics just to be able to negate you, which isn't fun for you since it'll make you feel like you took all those levels for nothing.
• Remonstration of Sloth: Oooh. Slow. Bump this to VH if you want to keep it, seeing as how strong slow is (incredibly so). Especially since no enemy will be able to resist it, what with how quickly skills outscale saves. (Can get a +30 item to a skill, can't get the same for a save.)
• Words of the Immaculate Mind: Again with countering with the DM can bring to the table, which narrows down a DM's options for what to throw at the party.
• Verse of the Inviolate: This is a good one--it doesn't counter the DM completely, while still bringing a lot of benefit to the party and reduces the damage they take rather than negating everything that's thrown at them. Very solid.
• Words of Equality: Goodbye, incorps and invisible creatures, goodbye, never to be seen again. Another DM counter.
• Denying the Leyline: We've already talked about how perform way outscales saves, so from here on out the DM can't even use monsters with spells and the like.
• Sacred Voice: Seems rather weak, since you're expending one of the above effects. I would make the spell also automatically maximized and quickened, perhaps? Unsure what's "too much".
• Solemn Prayer: Eh, it's fine. Nice flavor ability. Nothing special, as you've probably already got everyone to full HP by the time you rest for the night.
• Roar of the Just: Other way around would be better--get charisma modifier to hit and level to damage to it doesn't become a semi-true strike every time it's used.
• Blessings of Fortune: This one's fine, and I like it. Rerolling is good, negating the DM's actions is bad.
• Turn Undead: Meh. It's fine, and might come in handy unless you use SUPER FEATS to turn this crazy.
• Wisdom of Brevity: Probably fine. Is a nice upgrade.
• Hymn of Exhilaration: Granting standard actions is the stuff of action-economy breaking. If you bump the class to VH it should be fine, though.
• Turn the Blade: This one's cool, since it reduces damage but doesn't completely negate an enemy's action.
• Deny Fortune: Makes save-or-sucks always happen. Reroll is decent. Reroll with -12 penalty is bad. Fine in VH though.
• Voice of the Soul: Decent upgrade to Turn Undead. Should be fine, though it might make the DM reskin enemies so that they're "semi-undead/outsiders" and not the real deal so you don't always turn-auto-pwn them.
• Inspired Refrain: I don't particularly see a problem with this, as you should very rarely run out of spell slots.
• Voice of the Heavens: Cray-cray, for real-real, not fo' play-play. Depends on the scriptures taken. Still, a very, very nice capstone to cap off the class with.

So overall I like the class. That said, you might want to bump it up to VH with the many things that you have in here, since article balance is a range, rather than a single point. While this might be on the low end of VH (compared to the White Mage, which is on the higher end of VH, or the Marshal which is on the higher end of High), I think between all the abilities and how strongly you can negate what the DM throws at you, this sits solidly at the low end of VH. Change the balance point to VH and it's good in my opinion, keeping all the scaling and negating and everything, as you actually need those to survive in VH games. --Ghostwheel (talk) 07:21, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Verse of Valor and Temerarious Council aren't that bad are they? At level 18, they only change AC by 9 and 8 respectively. Would making the change a typed holy or unholy make any balance difference?

Words of Restoration might seem great, but it's mostly there as a panic button. Remember that while you are using Scriptures, the Chorister isn't casting spells or making full attacks. They are sacrificing a lot of their actions just to keep everyone else on their feet. As for the xp expenditure, Greater Restoration only costs 500xp, which at 14 level is negligible.

Verse of Ardor is another one that is useful, but not gamebreakingly so. The performance only lets you ignore the effects, it doesn't cure or make them immune, so once the song stops, they feel it. Freedom of Movement for the party is another great one, but the performance only lasts 1 minute, so it doesn't work for long term travel.

Words of the Immaculate Mind is useful against creatures with a constant aura or who likes to throw around spells/effects that attack you mentally I agree. But if the Chorister has to devote their actions to countering it, the DM is justified in using such a creature. The chorister can really save the party's bacon if one or more of them get hit with a mental whammy.

Remonstration of Sloth was indeed powerful, I changed the DC to 10+1/2Chorister Level+Cha. That should definitely make it more manageable, though still powerful. If an opponent can teleport, they can probably make the save, but it isn't guaranteed.

Words of Equality is another bit of help for the melee. It really sucks when you play as a mundane and get thwarted by incorporeal types. As with most of the performances though, spending time using this means you aren't using a spell or other performance.

Denying the Leyline was changed to opposed caster level checks.

Roar of the Just was meant to mimic Smite, got the bonuses turned around. Have since fixed it.

Hymn of Exhilaration is powerful, on that I agree with you. Using it does require a resource that is tied up in just about every other class ability the chorister has though, so it shouldn't be getting used every combat. I did add in a clause that it can only be used once per round.

Deny Fortune, kept the reroll but removed the penalty.

Voice of the Soul isn't one I'm super worried about. The ability only works on outsiders who have an alignment subtype opposing yours, so unless your campaign is "ALL DEVILS AND DEMONS ALL THE TIME" it shouldn't be too bad.

Voice of the Heavens was meant to be impressive. I mean, you stayed in the class all the way! Good going! Even so, when compared to the power of 9th level spells, I don't exactly tremble at the thought of it being abused.