Talk:Biotechnician (3.5e Class)

Ratings

	Enigma favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Excellent biology based class. My only complaint is it's a bit of a pain to track down all the spells with no links.

	Leziad favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	A really nice class, it possess abilities that make it on par with many other class in VH play without going full god-mode. The flavor is very striking and is what push this rating yo a favor.

Hammerhead dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Okay, so, let's start by saying that you have some solid flavor. Part Alchemist, part Mad Scientist, and part SCIENCE DRUID. All your class features add a development that the PC can understand and play around with. Two thumbs up on flavor. Second, I feel like I shouldn't be rating this, because it uses so much homebrew that I haven't actually read, and, who knows, maybe one homebrew spell this class gets ruins the class's balance. I'm gonna discount that entirely, because I have other thoughts on the class, you seem to know which way you're trying to take the spell list, and you appear to have carefully selected each part. Now, there's a lot of stuff In the mechanics that I dislike and need to go over, so let's do it piecemeal: (Improved/Greater) Distrust Biology: I dislike this, and this is my main reason for the Dislike rating. DB scales so quickly and so well, that no other combat class feature of the class is likely to ever be used. Only in the circumstance of a Save or Die/Suck spell, will there be a superior option. Vigor: How much do you really have to give at first level? Body Armor: Class level +4 +magic to AC? This is out of control. They'll be dealing the damage of 2 swings of a Greatsword with a touch attack at level 5, and they're wearing +2 Fullplate with no Dex bonus and no skill check penalty while they cast spells and use Bardic Knowledge. (With an army if undead constructs walking around offering flanking bonuses) Poison Use: How much do you have to give at second level? Dissection Knowledge: Cool. However, why does this work on Constructs? Graft Pool: Not a problem, but does this subtract from each Graft or is it just "You get this many gp worth of free Grafts"? Altered Movement: First, you don't need armor, you have your class level to AC. Second, you can ignore AoO from moving? That's abusive. Elemental Blood: You regeneration later, so this is an issue. Enduring Life: A person focused on biology doesn't need to eat, sleep, breath, or drink? That doesn't make sense. Envenomed Body: Really, I'd be okay with this, if you didn't eventually gain the ability to kill just by standing near someone. Feral Form: Ran the math. Disrupt Biology outclasses this at every level. Won't ever be used. Reanimator: An army of Undead with the Construct type? This class has so many class features, it's like an entire party wrapped up into a single character. Sever Limb: Yeah, Disrupt Biology will also make this class feature never be used. Regeneration: Really? Genetic Superiority: Infinite life at level 20? I don't think this should be a thing. Also, you add dozens of Grafts until you actually have no original parts left, and then become genetically perfect? That hurts by brain. Most other class features are fair or awesome, but don't need to actually be "fixed". These, however, are the reasons I dislike.

This is a very high class meant to be on the same level as wizards and druids, 1d6 damage/level is at best High level damage (and on the low end). --Leziad (talk) 07:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, well, I disagree that "Very High" is an actual balance point, because a Wizard or Druid actually needs to be optimized in order to reach it. If spells are selected without the entire Wizard spell list being known, or without very careful consideration of all things that might be needed during the day, including ambushes, the Wizard falls short, and the Druid has the same issue, though must also consider animal companions and wild shape. If the class is simply being played without optimization, they won't be Very High. Very High is an optimization point. However, this is a different rant than what is being discussed, and I'm willing to accept that a Very High balance point exists for the purpose of our discussion.

Supposing that you treat this class the same way that you treat a Wizard, and attempt to reach Very High balance point, all you need do is optimize your character and select the correct spells, and then, when you and the Wizard both run out of spells, you will have an Xd6 touch attack that ignores saves, your class level to AC, and poison. This class exceeds the Wizard and the Druid.

Though, would you care to justify why 1d6/level as a touch attack without a save is High level? Also, even if you can convince me that it is High level, how does this negate the fact that it outclasses the rest of the class itself? -Hammerhead

First off, yes very high is a balance point on the wiki. I recommend reading this, it will provide sufficient explanation on how balance system is made. Second druids and wizards don't need to be optimized at great length, you are level 3? Pick glitterdust. If you pick a wizard, only take toughness and dump your Int to 8, of course you won't be very high. Very high isn't just a measure of power, you need to be versatile and capable of changing and encounter (and in many case have a powerful effect on the in-game world). Over optimizing can cause a class to jump over to the next balance point, same for under optimizing.

A base rogue deal 1/2 his level in d6 to each of his attacks (and can sneak attack very often), if that not good enough we have the warblade whose damage potential greatly greatly outstrip Xd6 (X being level, which is 3.5 points of damage per class level). That not even talking about uberchargers who deal damage in the hundred at mid level, some even reach low thousands at high level. What all these have in common? None of these are very high.

The class true potential it is versatility, it rare you want to deal damage. It disrupt biology is a okay source of damage when it run out of good spells and option, medium base attack bonus plus d6 hit point (even with vigor and that armor bonus) mean you probably don't want to get in melee with a closet troll or a grapple monster (or beefy monsters in generals, let alone monster with the [awesome] subtype). What make it very high is it assorted reach of abilities, you do NOT only use disrupt biology because you will waste everyone's time and the party will wonder why they didn't pick up another tome fighter (or heavily optimized warblade).

On average disrupt biology will deal 70 points of damage at level 20, requiring a touch attack and it won't inflict any debilitating effect. A 20th level hellfire glaivelock will deal... 200 per attacks with whatever crap he attached to his eldritch glaive. So yeah, it pretty under optimal compared to a dedicated damage dealer, a backup if you want. I can provide more maths if you want.

EDIT: I did not see Greater Disturb Biology derp, well I can kind of see your point here. Now that it has a debilitating effect. I still disaggree with the rating but i will conceal Disturb Biology is very efficient --Leziad (talk) 08:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I've read it. When I say that Very High balance point doesn't exist, I'm actually referring to this website's definition of what Very High is supposed to be. Being able to take down any particular obstacle requires you to have exactly the correct tools for the job, which is possible, but requires amazing foresight and daily re-optimization.

You mention over optimization and under optimization, but no mention of a lack of either, which is how I consider classes. After all, like you said, an "Ubercharger" can deal thousands of points of damage, and if we have to take that into account, we can't have logical discussions about balance at all, because there are thousands of precedents to discuss and some are even contradictory to other precedents we would talk about. Now, supposing we don't over-or-under optimize - a Wizard has a good but imperfect selection of spells - they'll play as High. However, again, I'm currently operating in spite of my disbelief in the Very High balance point because it is commonly accepted on this website, and unless that can be altered, I have to work in tandem with it.

Disrupt Biology is also a ranged touch attack and then as a 20 foot burst at Long range. You should really have read the class more closely before you commented. A Rogue has to flank or catch the target unawares, and has to make a regular attack (not touch) to deal half their level in d6s. Sure, they can get more attacks, but at the level where they get more attacks, this class gets BD as a ranged touch attack.

There are several ways that sneak attack is stymied. Spot checks, failed tumble rolls, constructs, undead, fortification, high AC. How many ways is BD stymied? High touch AC. That's it. You can't compare them.

Also, the Hellfire Glaive Warlock is another optimized build, like the Ubercharger. That's the problem with using these things in a discussion concerning balance. This class feature is clearly more powerful than any ability granted by another class or a special ability possessed by any non-deity creature. There are near-parallels, but, unless focused, those parallels don't compete with this feature.

You have not convinced me, and, honestly, this debate isn't going anywhere. It's good that you are defending something that you believe in, though. -Hammerhead

Well I may not change your opinion but I respect it. As a few last words, I wouldn't say disrupt biology is all that great, it really good, but compared to most 9th level spell (like Maw of Chaos) it at least appear much weaker, it only important because the biotechnician don't have the ability to draw from higher spells and have access to a very limited spell list. One more thing against disrupt biology is that it can't really be optimized all that much. Anyway, I respect your opinion but we probably have a gap in our beliefs about the game, I agree it probably better to end things there. I am still interested in discussing the issue over debating it however, after all everything can be improved. --Leziad (talk) 09:24, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I made a mistake too. I forgot that Constructs are immune to DB too. However, look closer at the Biotechnician's spell list. Their 6th level spells contain a lot of 8th & 9th level spells. So, really, the only thing that Wizards have over the Biotech, is the ending overall number of spells.

Anyways, there are spells that deal 1d6 per level damage, and in areas, too. But they are spells, and naturally can only be used once a day. BD has something that heavy casters like Wizards and Druids lack: Endurance, and that's a big thing to be handing out.

Also, the class level still adds it's level to AC, and that's a big problem as well. The class is flawed, I'm just trying to bring attention to it.

Thank you for the respect, by the way. I might enjoy continuing the conversation too, but I would do so more easily in person or in IRC chatrooms, and I've already stayed up far too late, and I've not had overwhelming luck sparking conversations in the IRC anyways. -Hammerhead

(RESET INDENT) FYI I am watching this conversation and reviewing my class (it's so strange, but I forget my own classes so I have to read in detail to make sure I know what I'm doing). I'll probably be replying in full a bit later, and maybe make some edits. Living documents and all. Thanks for the input. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 10:23, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello IP 86.161.20.151

While I appreciate that you want to contribute to the wiki, please be aware we do have a policy that if you're making any mechanical changes (that is, things beyond typo fixes or clarity) you should make an attempt to contact the owner on the discussion page first.

And boy, were that some in depth changes you made.

Needless to say I reverted it, nor do I approve the changes given I am the author. If you have questions or concerns though, feel free to reply to this post. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 02:06, 31 March 2016 (UTC)