Talk:Heart of Stone (3.5e Maneuver)

Save or Die?

So a no save attack that kills anyone with less than half their hitpoints left? Did I read it wrong?--Parakee^Talk 20:21, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

You still need to hit their Armor Class. That is equivalent to a save or die, really (one d20 roll seals their fate). It seems pretty strong for a 4th level maneuver though. 5th or 6th might be more appropriate, but I'm no expert in ToB. --Aarnott 20:47, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd agree that this is too strong for a 4th level maneuver if you want ToB (Rogue) balance. I would place this at 6th level minimum. --Havvy 20:52, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I would say that Tome of Battle really tends towards fighter-level more often than not, but that's a whole separate issue. I don't think this effect isn't really better than a save-or-die given the cirsumstantial usage of it. This has to be set up in a fashion that can take multiple turns because the target's hit points have to be down to half. That makes it less powerful than a save-or-die on that basis alone, since a save-or-die can wipe someone off the map in the first turn of combat. - TG Cid 01:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Course, I'd argue that this isn't 4th level cause I did it already at 9th level, but I'm sure that can be argued at well. As a minor nitpick, I'm having trouble grasping the flavor on this one. That is, Iron Heart is all about weapon training and skillful use of weapons. Dunno, this one seems bland in that aspect, "you can kinda coup de grace a weakened non-helpless foe".

Anyway, I agree that this is too strong for its level. I wouldn't want to see effective SoDs them before 5th for wizards, and beyond that for rogue-levels. Actually I prefer SoDs remain capstone 9ths due to their relative spammability. -- Eiji-kun 01:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

ToB stressed hobgoblins a lot with Iron Heart, so I went for quite a bit of samurai-like flavor to go along with the weapons handling. It was also hard to pass up a pun concerning the heart for the Iron Heart discipline. But still, I don't think it's an SoD. It's too situational to say that it wipes an opponent out just like that. - TG Cid 01:30, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Well to put it in perpective, this is Power Word Kill. Assured death for anyone under X hp. Yeah that one doesn't have a save and doesn't really deserve to be a 9th level spell, but that's just because of the whole [Mind Affecting] and low totals for its level. This one the other hand isn't mind affecting and has a reasonable total for X, but has a save (in the form of an attack roll). Not that I think that's enough to drop it to 4th on rogue level. -- Eiji-kun 01:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Damage

Damage seems a bit low on this one now. I'd change it to an addition 2d6 per condition met personally. An additional d6 to 10 damage is not worth it in comparison to making a full attack. --Havvy 20:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I approve

This has a nice original flavor now. -- Eiji-kun 23:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)