Talk:Master Biomancer (3.5e Prestige Class)

Ratings

Blocked Rating	Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.What UK says, fusion is not something that should be permanent or at-will, ever. I can see a lot of potential in this class, but I think you must tread carefully when dealing with stat combiner.

Blocked Rating

Undead Knave opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.At level 5 in games that have a lot of downtime, every powerful enemy becomes a part of one of the PCs. At level 1, it's just the ones that've been charmed/coerced/etc. for 1 round. The easy abuse for mind controlling enemies is patched, and although there are still potential ways to get consent for the one round you need, it's less glaring an issue. I think the bigger issue is just that the fusion ability at the basis of this class has glaring problems for any game. It would be interesting for a story, but in a game, you have - at best - the tale of someone who hybridizes their friends with animals to make them strong as a bear, fast as a tiger, and enduring as a horse (or at the very least as strong as a cow, as fast as a dog, and as enduring as a mule), with a hide the thickness of a dragon's scales. Speaking of dragons, though, let's discuss the more likely tale: the Mad Biomancer (who by the way, has no levels in the Biomancer base class, because it's actually easier and faster to get in without it, and allows you to hybridize more efficiently because your microbe pool is 0 which you can spend multiple times per day) deems that it's for the Greater Good to solve the crime problem in the city by making sure that all of their allies can find traps and stab people in the backs, and decides that four heroes that know simple spells are a greater boon to the world than a handful of clergy and hermits and students and hedge witches. They decide that it makes sense to just buy a ton of cows to get that delicious boost to natural armor. You know what else sounds good? Bonus feats. Every Fighter bonus feat. They get them at level 1, and at this point, what's stopping you from taking Leadership? It is a great honor to be noticed by the cult leader. dictator. devourer of worlds. good doctor. You probably won't ever need rage or flurry or bardic countersong or whatever, but I mean, you have them. So far this has been less than a year. Honestly, this might not even have been a month. But wait, you say, I addressed the mind control thing. Yeah, but willing includes unconscious because D&D is creepy. You could close that loophole, but like, it doesn't actually help. Much. Beyond diplomancy (which, by the way, everyone can do, because you all have great Charisma and every class skill, and interestingly, not the skill points invested by the people you ate assimilated consumed fused with) there's intimidation ("Just let me do this one thing or I stab you in the face until you don't have a face. It's for the Greater Good because...evil dragon or whatever?") and just plain trickery ("Hey, I can cure those wounds for you, just let me do my magic touch. Oops, looks like you're a part of my gestalt now. Heh, don't you hate when that happens?"). If you try to block those "loopholes," guess what. There's literally nothing that this can apply to. Except the corpses of your foes when you hit level 5 of the class. So. There's that. But whatever. Let's ignore what would happen in every game that had even a week of downtime and pretend it didn't have that. Either you never get to use the ability this class is clearly based around or every number the PCs have quickly grows exponentially. Also, it occurs to me, that since you gain the class levels that people you add to your psychic gestalt, fuse with, you might level faster as Rogue than the Rogue? Because all these level 1 thief dudes you're eating for the Greater Good? Also, I think the requirements are a bit weird, but I'm basically the least concerned about that. Wow, I haven't even addressed continuing to gain every class feature and spellcasting at every level of the base class you're probably supposed to take before taking this. I've kinda gone on a huge rant, and it all sounds really assy. I know. Not the intent, I swear. As I mentioned, I actually really would enjoy reading the story of the well intentioned doctor-fighter-person who learns to Voltron with his fallen foes and is driven mad. That sounds rad as heck. I don't think the concept works for a class in D&D, though, as much as that disappoints me. I want to make a gestalt batguana with a rhinocorn horn and cute little bunnydog ears. That sounds delightfully horrifying. All told, though, this class would not be good for the game. Tldr; go up and read it. It looks bad, but... well, it kinda is. Sorry. Let me know if you'd like my help in trying to make this a more workable concept.

Is there a way to contest ratings? The 0/4 is not relevant since my edits and is making huge assumptions and odd connections.Enigma (talk) 09:19, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

Improvements.

Feel free to add ideas/concerns about the class. I'm not sure what Undead Knave is talking about fusing dazed people as from the beginning it has to be willing. Edited to avoid mind control effects though, and turned down the power for making a fusion permanent.

Why do you say it's better to just start it at level 1, the entry requirement is BAB 7 which is level 10 for a biomancer. Also I based the "continue leveling up in biomancer" off other similar prestige classes I've seen in homebrew

I'm not giving up on the fusion aspect, being able to control cells and being a biomancer just begs for hybridization. The main use I imagined for my own biomancer was using the temporary fusion to fuse with his test subject for intense physical battles, since he is so squishy and using the pods to make permanent changes to creatures sort of like making your own Owlbear combo. It's not meant to be a borg/assimilation thing. So I think I will add onto the pods a limit, once you make a certain number of permanent fusions that's it- the genome gets too dense to express it all.

I don't know about other games, but would everyone even be willing to be an insane mix of a bear/horse/whatever? Especially when making it permanent fuses their minds together as well. I don't think anyone in my game would want that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enigma (talk • contribs) at

I mean level 1 in the class. You can actually get in earlier than level 10 if you don't take any levels in Biomancer. The problem is that with the wording you advance everything, not just spellcasting or the scaling class features. Basically, as is, taking this would be better than taking base Biomancer, since it's Biomancer AND. There are some classes on the wiki that advance class features, but they're usually not every level, and they tend to be rare. A lot of players will do whatever if it means they hit harder, and if one player does it and others don't then you actually have an even bigger problem with combats, since it means that now one person is more powerful than everyone else. --Undead_Knave (talk) 09:05, 10 July 2017 (MDT)

Okay, my review and questions about the review. Please update your reasons for rating it 0 or switch the rating. "I think the bigger issue is just that the fusion ability at the basis of this class has glaring problems for any game. It would be interesting for a story, but in a game, you have - at best - the tale of someone who hybridizes their friends with animals to make them strong as a bear, fast as a tiger, and enduring as a horse (or at the very least as strong as a cow, as fast as a dog, and as enduring as a mule), with a hide the thickness of a dragon's scales." A limit on number of fusions you can make permanent has been implemented, and the requirement that amount of biomass must be reflected discourages just absorbing random animals immediately.

"though, let's discuss the more likely tale: the Mad Biomancer (who by the way, has no levels in the Biomancer base class, because it's actually easier and faster to get in without it, and allows you to hybridize more efficiently because your microbe pool is 0 which you can spend multiple times per day)" need to expend at least 1 microbe pool point, but edited to explicitly require biomancer levels, as the class is clearly for very advanced biomancers and would make no in-game sense to have unrelated classes take it. Not sure any DM would allow a rogue to randomly become a prodigy at biomancy, but fine it's explicit now.

"They decide that it makes sense to just buy a ton of cows to get that delicious boost to natural armor" Again, this was changed a while ago, there is a cap on the number of things you can stay fused with, and again the biomass would discourage most people from becoming a blobby cow man for a few AC points.

"So far this has been less than a year. Honestly, this might not even have been a month." What? Time flow and XP flow is so specific to individual games this means literally nothing.

"But wait, you say, I addressed the mind control thing. Yeah, but willing includes unconscious because D&D is creepy. You could close that loophole, but like, it doesn't actually help. Much. Beyond diplomancy (which, by the way, everyone can do, because you all have great Charisma and every class skill, and interestingly, not the skill points invested by the people you ate assimilated consumed fused with) there's intimidation ("Just let me do this one thing or I stab you in the face until you don't have a face. It's for the Greater Good because...evil dragon or whatever?") and just plain trickery ("Hey, I can cure those wounds for you, just let me do my magic touch. Oops, looks like you're a part of my gestalt now. Heh, don't you hate when that happens?"). If you try to block those "loopholes," guess what. There's literally nothing that this can apply to. Except the corpses of your foes when you hit level 5 of the class. So. There's that"

Most of this doesn't make sense to begin with, they have to understand what's happening and agree to it willingly. But regardless it was changed a while ago "Both creatures must be willing and they must be willing, conscious, and not under any mind controlling effect". I don't know how you ever thought lying about it could work with the wording, but it doesn't. They have to be WILLING to FUSE not just say "Sure" to a random question...

"But whatever. Let's ignore what would happen in every game that had even a week of downtime and pretend it didn't have that. Either you never get to use the ability this class is clearly based around or every number the PCs have quickly grows exponentially. Also, it occurs to me, that since you gain the class levels that people you add to your psychic gestalt, fuse with, you might level faster as Rogue than the Rogue? Because all these level 1 thief dudes you're eating for the Greater Good?" Cap on fusions. Can't "eat" people. Would require DM to provide you with conga line of willing various level rogues to be true even before that.

"Also, I think the requirements are a bit weird, but I'm basically the least concerned about that." Weird how? You have to be a knowledgable high level biomancer in order to qualify. Good alignment because this class builds off the creation, life giving aspects of OG biomancer class and not the disease aspect.

"Wow, I haven't even addressed continuing to gain every class feature and spellcasting at every level of the base class you're probably supposed to take before taking this." Okay? I based that off other prestige classes already in existence. This is for extremely skilled biomancers, they don't stop learning normal biomancer stuff they learn MORE than a normal biomancer.

"I've kinda gone on a huge rant, and it all sounds really assy. I know. Not the intent, I swear. As I mentioned, I actually really would enjoy reading the story of the well intentioned doctor-fighter-person who learns to Voltron with his fallen foes and is driven mad. That sounds rad as heck. I don't think the concept works for a class in D&D, though, as much as that disappoints me. I want to make a gestalt batguana with a rhinocorn horn and cute little bunnydog ears. That sounds delightfully horrifying. All told, though, this class would not be good for the game" "Let me know if you'd like my help in trying to make this a more workable concept."

Okay, I think you misunderstand the vibe I want from the class, there's nothing horrifying or mad built into it. But regardless, if your intent is for the class to be better please address the updates and rebuttals I put together. undead knave Enigma (talk) 09:42, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

I'll look over it later. I'm heading to work in a few minutes, so I don't have time now. --Undead_Knave (talk) 11:12, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

Alright, let's get back to this and see how we do. The problematic thing about the entry requirements was the BAB +7 in a class that looks like you're supposed to take the first level of at 6. I don't get the Good alignment from the class, but whatever. I'm guessing it has to do with wanting the healing Microbe Touch, but that just needs non-evil. The Int requirement is also a bit weird, but again, whatever.

The advancement of stuff for the Biomancer isn't actually listed in the text, and text trumps table. I recognize that it's intended to be there, though. The Biomancer is a full caster (albeit one with a pretty limited list), so that's pretty good, but is fine. If this advances all class features, that's even bigger, and while it can work it's also kind of dangerous territory and shouldn't advance every level. Alright. This alone also pushes it into Very High territory. It's a Prestige Class that improves on a Very High Class.

Somatic Fusion is still problematic mechanically. One level 20 PC is generally much stronger than 2 level 10 PCs (particularly when you boost all their scores into the atmosphere), so if you're combining things that have class features, that's problematic. Plus there's a lot of bookwork that goes into recalculating literally every number on a sheet. Also, much more minorly, there isn't any description of what is entailed in having more control over the biomass/appearance at 5. Do I get that big Naga-like tail, or can I make a dragon fused with a human a human sized thing?

The base Cytoplasm Capsules are fine for the most part, but I don't think they do what you intend for them to do. First, you don't actually give a duration on the Strength bonus, so it lasts forever as is, plus there should be a DC listed for the Reflex negates (just writing "This save is Int-based." is sufficient, since that would imply basic DC rules (10+1/2HD+ability score)). That should be fixed. More importantly, your pool of Microbe Touch is one per class level per day. In order to have 40 points of Microbe Touch to feed into the pod each day, you have to be so far into Epic that numbers don't matter and this isn't necessarily unbalanced.

The ability to make new life easier is cool, and I'm totally alright with it, since it's mostly basically just a flavor thing.

You can still fuse with whatever when you hit level 5, too, since it just has to be dead (that clearly gets around consent, since it's a corpse), so you could just hunt down a mind flayer or a beholder or a dragon or whatever big nasty you wanted to get all kinds of abilities that are not intended for PCs. They also don't have any will to exert to change the mind of the PC at this point, since they're a corpse. Probably don't fuse with the Blackguard if you want class features, but probably don't do that anyway, since you can probably pick better. You still end up having the same issue as you did before (although much less pronounced) of the PCs hunting people down to get everyone spellcasting, a bunch of self-beef (figurative now instead of literal), and the skills to pay the bills, which means that when you hit this point, the game changes drastically.

That really isn't a thing that's good for most to all games. If you kill the BBEG (which is now very plausible very quickly), one of the PCs now has the abilities of the BBEG. They've got to be careful of what they fuse with now to get the most results, but even still they jump up to the point of "Hey, let's go kill Vecna/Orcus/Asmodeus/the Direst of Butts." basically right away.

Consider a level 10 Barbarian. Now consider a level 10 Barbarian who also has all a Beholder's eye rays.

Consider a level 10 Wizard. Now consider a level 10 Wizard also has all the trappings of a Dragon.

Consider a Master Biomancer. Now consider a Master Biomancer who is also Mummy Lord, Cleric levels included.

Consider a level 10 Wizard. Now consider a level 10 Wizard who also has another 10 levels in Wizard.

I hope that makes my point about the issues inherent in the fusion ability. --Undead_Knave (talk) 11:45, 14 October 2017 (MDT)

1. I already said the good is because master biomancers are about the wonder of life. It's not about forcing the healing microbe touch, it's flavor and thematics. Evil biomancers can't become masters because they are too focused on spreading disease. I don't know how the INT requirement could possibly be considered weird, they need to be incredibly intelligent for this class. I also don't like how you criticize the high power level but also keep bringing up the entry requirements? You can't just throw this class onto anyone. It's a very flavorful and restricted class. 2. I appreciate you taking the time to go through it again, and there are parts of your reply I will take into account. But it's really frustrating when you keep saying things that simply aren't true. Microbe touch is class level x INT modifer. My Biomancer is level 6 and his microbe pool is already 30. If you are going to rate my class the lowest possible please try to at least know what you're talking about. 3. It is a high power level, it's a prestige class with a lot of entry limits, I have no interest in dropping the advancing biomancer base class as it makes no sense for flavor to drop it. The way I built it, with just two main abilities is BECAUSE it's still advancing the base class. Even the added spell list is irrelevant, they are all druid spells so if a DM would allow them in a game they would probably allow a base biomancer at the appropriate level to have them too. If he didn't advance in the base class it's a class with only two abilities. 4. You're right on the duration catch, it's supposed to be temporary so I will add that. A downside to trapping an enemy in one during battle is when they escape they will be temporarily buffed up, while it remaining a good thing if you can pull it off in anticipation of a battle. But again the microbe touch calculation is wrong 5. I'll fix the corpse loophole by wording it more like a regular method of resurrection. Or maybe retool it a bit, but your issue can be fixed by specifying the soul of the dead character needs to be willing to be brought back by this method. 6. You're talking again like they can just go around hunting down all kinds of creatures/people to absorb when there is still a limit on that. Regardless it will be patched when I reword the resurrection aspect of the pods. You need genuine consent and understanding to fuse creatures. I'll also point out here that a lot of what you describe the biomancers doing (tricking, desecrating corpses for their own gain, etc) would violate the good requirement. So that's, again, a balancing point that you list as a somewhat negative. 7. Out of all of this I'll say I'm reconsidering the aspect of fusion that they maintain all the known spells and pool knowledge. Retool it so the physical ability scores stack but the mental scores stay whoever is in charge rather than the highest. Gain qualities inherit to the physiology of the partner (regeneration) but not ones based on knowledge (like learned spells). I'll also specifically add in an "Ex-Master biomancer" section so it's clear that if you turn evil, then you lose the abilities. They are not for people like you describe, or those who find biomancy horrifying.

Again I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me and I did get some things I want to clean up about it. But I think overall I just need to get over the rating, you are missing/misunderstanding too much for me to keep doing this. I'll just work on my class, cleaning it up, etc and hopefully people who see the value in it will come along eventually thanks, Undead_Knave Enigma (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2017 (MDT)

You gave an itemized list, so I'll address them in order.

1. I really don't care to argue alignment restrictions. I'm not a fan of them, and I don't think they add to the game. You want it, keep it. The Int requirement is weird because PrCs don't normally have stat requirements. Also stat requirements are typically odd numbers.

2. I triple checked in response. I assume you're using Eiji's old Biomancer as the base, since that's the only thing on the Wiki named Biomancer or with a microbe touch. The whole class feature reads (with bolding by me for emphasis) "Microbe Touch (Su): Biomancers command biological systems by force of will. Good aligned biomancers may touch a subject and repair ability damage up to 1 point per class level every day. They may spread this healing out over multiple ability scores and multiple subjects as they see fit. By expending 5 points, they may create the effect of remove disease on a subject or remove blindness/deafness.

Evil aligned biomancers instead corrupt with their touch, dealing 1 point of ability penalty per class level (which cannot go below 1), with a Fort save for half DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Int. They may apply the penalty to any ability score they see fit. The penalty lasts for 1 minute/level. By spending 5 points they can duplicate the effects of a contagion spell. The saving throw for this is 10 + 1/2 class level + Int, and unlike the normal spell, the secondary save is the same as the first. Neutral biomancers may decide between curing disease, or creating it, and stick with their decision.", so it is 1/CL/day. It does appear to be based off Lay on Hands, but doesn't use the exact same formula.

3. I recognize it only has a few abilities, but they are strong abilities. I appreciate you trying to avoid dead levels, and advancing existing class features (maybe doing everything but advancing spellcasting) is fine, but if you give everything and something else there's no reason not to take this if you can.

4. Yeah, those duration clauses can get you if you aren't careful.

5. I had actually thought the corpse thing was intentional. Was it really not?

6. I know you have the number limited now, but there really are a bunch of ways to get people to be okay with a thing for any period of time. You can literally do it with Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate for the short term, and that's all you need for the long term. Also, I actually thought the corpse thing was intentional.

7. That is potentially the biggest problem, but it still isn't the only one. It also kind of adds in a whole new can of worms where the wizard gets to be buff and agile and the fighter gets a little buffer but nothing else, but I've stated thee big argument several times above.

I like the idea of combining things. I really do. It's just super dangerous. I hope this helps. --Undead_Knave (talk) 00:17, 16 October 2017 (MDT)

P.S. I see there are some new edits, but I haven't read them yet at the time of this posting.

Notice

Self-rating your own article is against policy. Check out that biz here: Dungeons and Dragons Wiki:Rating Articles. Secondly, welcome aboard. On the topic of getting ratings on an article, and getting ratings negatively, don't feel bad. It is, after all a point at which discussion opens, and getting feedback on an article is seriously awesome and something I wish I had more time for personally. Asking for an elaboration on why the article was rated a certain way is always helpful (those things should already be in the rating itself, but sometimes keeping things succinct for readability or other reasons causes that to fail, we're only human after all). So, you could be all like "Hey, UK, what do you mean by at level 5 with some downtime you just make any enemy part of a PC?" and I'm sure he'll notice and pop on and give an explanation as soon as he's got the time. You can always post on the talk page that you're looking for more feedback as well. That's about it for now I guess. Carry on. --Ganteka Future (talk) 13:39, 9 July 2017 (MDT)

Its now been changed to actually require a high number of microbe touch points, and a limit on fusions as mentioned. If someone wants to fuse with 4 cows and be an awful blob of cow in exchange for some AC go for it. Though I am looking into having there be a risk of losing control of the body for multiple fusions too. Then it can be applied to creatures fine but makes it riskier to PCs, those 3 cow brains may overpower you then you are screwed for being more cow than man. This can be managed with restrictions, saying fixing holes will make it unusable isnt helpful nor true. Side note, playing with someone who would run off and instantly start 'eating' a herd of cows to hit harder sounds awful to play with. I will add more prereqs to prevent people from getting in from just any class. Its meant to be for biomancers mainly or at least a similar base. Theres no reason why a rogue could awake as a master biomancer so I will fix that as well.

I will say my main goals for the class again, for those who want to make suggestions.

1. Fusion, biomancers making hybrids is a major point of the class. Such as owlbears, for the actual biomancer fusing temporarily with their test subject to increase their physical combat abilities

2.Given access to fitting homebrew spells not on the main list

3. Give the feel of a creative, especially gifted biomancer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enigma (talk • contribs) at

Changing things up, lowering the scope of fusion and for now it can't be made permanent. Working on a fusion summoning to replace that combo. Like summoning via nature's ally but the creatures you summon are fusions from your creature list. Also thinking of adding a chart that gives buffs to your fused state based on what Class your test subect is (eg Mammal, Amphiba) so we'll see if this way is better. Enigma (talk) 22:20, 28 January 2018 (MST)

Undead_Knave I see that I have been using an old version of the biomancer, one that had way more microbe touch. So sorry for freaking out there, also I took away permanent fusion.Enigma (talk) 20:47, 31 January 2018 (MST)

Mechanical suggestions/comments

Like a mechanic? Think one needs tweaking? Let me know here :)Enigma (talk) 09:44, 13 October 2017 (MDT)

"block=NewVersion"

Aaaaactually there's a way to negate old ratings without blanking the page, which we try not to do for historical reasons. For that reason I undid your edit, but went ahead and put those "newversion" tags to negate the ratings as I believe was your intent. Feel free to reply if you have questions. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 00:55, 2 June 2018 (MDT)

Thanks, sorry I poked around for a way to just 'void' them and yelled into the void at some point to ask how to do so, now I know! Enigma (talk) 01:01, 2 June 2018 (MDT)