Talk:Subtle Cut (3.5e Feat)

Oh RAW...

Ignoring the fact this is typical overpowered Frank & K tripe, I noticed something funny.

+0: Any time you damage an opponent, that damage is increased by 1.

As worded, you hit something and your damage is permanently increased by 1. It probably was meant to be +1 damage in general, or +1 scaling damage vs one opponent, but nope... 1 extra damage every attack, no duration. The el oh els. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:40, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the "that" there makes the object of your damage increase a specific instance of damage, not all damage ever, which would prevent the runaway increase you're referring to. I should run that sentence by one of my English grad friends though.

Semantics aside, calling it overpowered is weird and confusing. Are you arguing that this is a case of overpowered for VH (extremely relevant) or simply restating the opinion that VH is overpowered (irrelevant aside from preference)? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

The former. Falls into the unofficial planar shepard level for me. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:09, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Runaway increases like that can only happen when you have some kind of updatable storage and...math doesn't work like that without explicit recursion. I don't actually understand what makes this feat overpowered in any case -- if I use it, it's to increase ability damage I can deal. What abuse case are you thinking of? Surgo (talk) 02:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

No abuse case, just saying its a pile of strong abilities, some which could probably be VH feats on their own, just in one. Yeah I know, scaling feat. Its just that all the abilities are good are their own and too good together. For sake of argument say "Divine Metamagic" was considered king of VH feats, right? And then this feat was like five divine metamagics. I... don't think I'm explaining this well. Do you know where I'm coming from?

Cause regardless if I believed DMM was a good feat itself or not, I'd call the Penta-DMM even more absurd. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I just noticed... save vs daze. Fort? Will? Doesn't say. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:31, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with your argument about the power of the segments. The +0 is just +1 damage, and that's just Low. The +1 quite nice, and I could see an attack that slows the enemy in exchange for iterative attacks being a High feat. The +6 is again nice, but is trading Dex damage for iterative attacks again. Still nice, and I'd probably peg it somewhere between High and low Very High. At these levels, this mostly doesn't change much for either of these feats, seeing as people only have two attacks, but it's still worth noting. The +11 is amazing (although it is worth noting it only works for weapons the person with the feat makes) and is solidly Very High. The +16 is also powerful, given dazing, and I would definitely call it Very High, but at this point iterative attacks are often important to full BAB characters, and those who don't make use of iterative attacks still often have other things they like doing with their standard/full round actions. The kind of save should be specified, but that's not doing anything to the power level and was almost certainly just a typo. As is, this is a solid Very High feat, but it is by no means Divine Metamagic, let alone five times as good as Divine Metamagic. --Undead_Knave (talk) 15:43, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Balance of abilities is probably fine, but I actually dislike it from a thematic standpoint and order of granted abilities standpoint. Damage + stuff is not subtle, and the movement one actually encourages you to ubercharge at guys to root them. Dazed for 1 round does not seem substantially stronger than dex damage, so showing up 10 levels later is super weird. At-will dex damage of that caliber seems a bit early anyway. As for the 'make wounding' thing... I don't even know what subtle cutting has to do with crafting. So there's plenty in the feat to like on its own, but I think it's a bit of a mess all together. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 20:43, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a comment on the wounding bit: I think that due to the fact that the wounding effect is only applied to weapons you are wielding, the insinuation is that you cut them so bad with anything that they bleed a lot, not that you are crafting weapons so good that they can do it. It takes the emphasis off the weapon and on the user.

Dazed may well be weaker than the Dex damage, not to mention that in terms of equivalent abilities gained the Tome Barb (as power-creep as it may admittedly be) gains the ability to stun creatures on melee attacks at level 8. - TG Cid (talk) 02:02, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The real benefit of the daze in this feat is that it's not restricted to melee weapons. That said, the feat as a whole could stand to fit in with its flavor more. Anyone have any ideas? Surgo (talk) 02:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

It's a very different direction, but quivering palm always seemed like a subtle attack. Not sure if a "damage delayed until you feel like applying it; if not within X time limit damage does not apply" effect could be built into something scaling and functional and useful, but it's what's been stuck in my head for a day or so now. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 18:37, 21 May 2014 (UTC)