User talk:Rlyehable/sandbox/2

Ratings

Vaegrim opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

Too much and too strong. Right out of the gate, Whirlwind Attack outruns the equivalent 11th level Hunter-Ranger feature. Add to this the incomparable benefit of Whirlwind Defense and it's left massively front-loaded. But it's not just strong at the beginning. Blink Strike is nigh-equivalent to a permanent foresight. Impossible Parry is questionable but I could let it go if it were the strongest thing the Dervish did; it's nearest comparison is Defensive Duelist, a feat it easily surpasses. Blitzkrieg and Additional Fighting Style are acceptable on their own, though there's an obvious lack of non-combat features.

	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Gotta agree with the IP. Doubling a stat to AC is pretty damn bonkers, and the capstone is as well since none of the other archetypes give something even close to similar to it. I'm not sure how I feel about the whirlwind (which honestly should not be allowed to be used with multiple attacks), especially at such low levels even with the downsides, but some of the other parts don't fit in 5e.

Absurdly overpowered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.151.222.149 (talk • contribs) at

Justification would be cool. If all you do is denigrate it without giving any adequate reasoning, no one has any reason to listen to your opinion. - TG Cid (talk) 18:20, 18 June 2017 (MDT)

I'll be honest, I didn't think it was necessary since a once-through would let you know that this archetype:

A.) Gets up to 7 attacks on a bonus action for free, depending on how many enemies are in range, more if the weapon has reach. This becomes more absurd when Extra Attack is gained, offering up to 48 attacks total at level 11 and 64 at level 20. This number increases exponentially if the weapon has reach. Even assuming this feature only applies to one attack, that's still a potential 20+ extra attacks from a bonus action, using a weapon with reach.

B.) Assuming at least 18 DEX, gets 20 AC wearing studded leather armor, for free. If they take the Defensive fighting style (which is easy 'cause this archetype gets two) this increases to 21, 23 if they use a shield, and increasing to 25 when they reach 20 DEX, which, assuming a point-buy score of at least 16, should be by level 6, because who needs feats when you're this OP? A level 6 Dervish will likely have at least 20 AC while fighting NAKED. That is absolutely bananas, and this is all before any magic items the Dervish might find.

C.) Gets an extra safeguard against its already-impossible-to-hit AC with Impossible Parry. Why on earth does this attack roll get advantage? I suppose it doesn't matter, because the odds an enemy will hit you are low enough that this feature actually becomes less useful.

D.) Becomes unhittable in melee at level 18, as well as gaining defense against what had been their only weakness until this point, which was casters.

All in all this archetype is a Page 1 Rewrite. Almost every single one of its features are completely broken. If one of my players tried to get this into my campaign I would consider finding a new player. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.151.222.149 (talk • contribs) at

See, at least now you explained yourself. You shouldn't assume anyone knows anything on the internet. I didn't even bother reading the class before now, but from a principle standpoint not explaining your reasoning just makes you sound like a knee-jerk reaction snowflake. I'll admit I don't know anything about 5e, but based on some light reading here are my initial thoughts on all the things that you claim make something super-broken:

A.) The real problem here is ambiguity, in terms of whether or not you can apply the Fighter's Extra Attack feature to these bonus targets as you pointed out. If yes, then you have a point and the author should probably make changes. If no, then this is functionally equivalent to trading in a 5-karat diamond for five 1-karat diamonds and thus not a fair trade unless you are slaughtering mooks who you can slay in one attack anyway. So it being broken hinges on an assumption that you made that may not even be true.

B.) Unhittable, my ass. A level 1 fighter with full plate and a shield has 20 AC and can pour all his points into Strength and Con because Dex becomes a dump stat. If you assume the dervish also takes the shield, then you are foregoing additional damage output assuming the class doesn't have the same cheesy first ability you intimated it did. Add to that the lack of any class feature making the dervish add Dexterity to melee attack and damage rolls instead of Strength and the assumption of a point-buy system, then the dervish likely does less damage than the basic fighter (hitting less often and hitting for less) because he has to invest in Dex as well as Strength and Con. So he suffers from Multiple Ability Dependency all for the sake of some bonus AC that a plate-wearing fighter can still more or less match. Whoop-dee-doo.

C.) This is at 15th level. You SHOULD be able to do stuff like this at 15th level. Plus it's one measly attack when opponents can make several or just gang up on you and negate its benefit almost entirely. It also doesn't let you do something more useful like block a spell. Nowhere near as good as you make it out to be, in my view, unless there are some specific instances of high-damage single attack abilities this would let you negate.

D.) Again, not really all that broken. A lower level wizard can end the dervish's entire contribution to the fight by locking him inside a forcecage. THAT is real power. What you are on about is just hysterics and one case of a rule that could be misinterpreted. This is why stating your case matters. - TG Cid (talk) 18:09, 20 June 2017 (MDT)

A.) If you knew anything about 5e, which you yourself admitted you didn't, you would know that your bonus action has nothing to do with the number of attacks you have unless you're two-weapon fighting, in which case the offhand attack consumes the bonus action. A Dervish taking their attack action would still get all of their attacks and would still hit everything in range, meaning that no, this isn't like splitting a 5-karat diamond into 5, because the attack isn't split, it's hitting everything for new damage. It's not splitting the damage, it is literally granting free DPR on an absurd scale.

B.) No, it's not unhittable, but it is completely unfair. A fighter wearing heavy armor with a shield will typically have an AC of AROUND 18-21-ISH armor at level 6, which also adds disadvantage to stealth checks, takes 10 times as long to put on, and in the case of Plate, weigh 65 freaking pounds. With Dervish a fighter can wear studded leather and a shield and have 25 AC at level 6 really easily. And yes, I am assuming you would take a shield, because two-weapon fighting is invalidated by the use of Whirlwind Attack consuming your bonus action and thereby making an offhand weapon worthless. There is literally no reason not to use a shield with this class. None at all. By thr way, 5e has weapons with the finesse property, meaning you can choose to use DEX for both attack rolls AND damage made with that weapon. These weapons include Shortswords, Scimitars AND Rapiers. So not only is the Dervish hitting just as often and dealing nearly just as much damage as any other fighter, they're dealing that damage to EVERY enemy in range of them, which may I remind you, is up to 8 at a time. That. Is. Atrocious.

C.) Literally no other subclass lets you cancel attacks simply by making an attack roll, let alone making one with ADVANTAGE, which in case you didn't know, is rolling two dice and taking the higher roll, mathematically adding an average of +10 to the final result. THAT IS BONKERS.

D.) I'm willing to concede this point simply because the rest of the class is far more disgusting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.60.114 (talk • contribs) at

Re: Forcecage, remmeber that the material component is quite expensive, especially since characters in 5e don't go by any sort of set CWBL table. --Ghostwheel (talk) 19:02, 20 June 2017 (MDT)

Thank you everyone for your comments and critique. I will re-work the article with an eye to less power. --Rlyehable (talk) 19:12, 10 December 2017 (MST)

Revised 2019-07-09

Please review the revised subclass. --Rlyehable (talk) 00:20, 9 July 2019 (MDT)

My rating remains unchanged; why does it get access to a second major save, especially at such low level? Why do you have an absurdly higher AC than any other fighter? (23 before shields or magic.) Why do you get basically access to a level 11 ranger ability at 3rd level? How is a second fighting style flavorful at all to this class? And why do you need to grant all enemies disadvantage against you, on top of the absurdly high AC? I would not let this into my games in any way, shape, or form, still absolutely bonkers. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:29, 9 July 2019 (MDT)

Thank you Ghostwheel. I appreciate your comments and will continue to rework.

I feel like the basic problem with the subclass is that it doesn't do anything interesting. We already have subclasses that are boring for the fighter, and this one builds on it. Instead, I would go back to the conceptual drawingboard. What cool things do you imagine this class doing? What crazy wuxia moves can they do? What do they excel at? If you want a sounding board, feel free to hit me up on Discord, as it's difficult to have a quick back-and-forth here. --Ghostwheel (talk) 13:44, 9 July 2019 (MDT)