Talk:Holy Hold (3.5e Spell)

Ratings

	Enigma favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	A very cool and detailed spell

Blocked Rating	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.A single class ability choice that is chosen from dozens of different options should not require 5 minutes of rereading to understand fully.

Sulacu dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Sorry, but this spell is just not very workable. Even Eiji's suggested fixes can't make this good, and even then I still struggle to figure out whether this spell is super weak or stupid strong. When you need immediate crowd control, this spell pales in comparison to, say, hold person or black tentacles, which can instantly stop a creature from moving or casting spells. On the other hand, if you were to cast this in the fucking Acropolis people will be getting dashed against Doric columns for disintegrate-tier damage left and right, and that's not something a 5th-level spell should be capable of doing under any circumstance.

Blocked Rating	Dragonexx opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.Holy Wall of Text Batman! Find a way to trim this down, by a LOT!

Blocked Rating	Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.That thing is way way way way too long and the effect is mediocre. I feel the spell is extremely complicated and way too long to read.

Paladette Spell List

It would be nice if you added a link to the spell directly on the Paladette page: Because they have SRD spells, that's supposed to be the complete list; and it's a watched page so I get to be informed when you add something and decide whether I agree. --Foxwarrior (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Time Stop Stupidity

Time stop doesn't work that way for a very very good reason: Being able to stop time, teleport into battle, kill everything, teleport away, and then have the time stop end is far more irritating than even the normal scry-and-die tactics. Potentially as much as 6d6/level damage, Fortitude half is quite drastic. --Foxwarrior (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

And yet delayed blast fireball minefields are perfectly legal. Your point is...? --Luigifan18 (talk) 05:10, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, at least delayed blast fireball is two levels higher and deals half as much damage. --Foxwarrior (talk) 05:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

At least holy hold only does damage if you can set the opponent up to be crushed by something. It's situational, so I feel that it should be a bit stronger in exchange for that. Plus, well, there's the alignment descriptor, which restricts this spell's availability. --Luigifan18 (talk) 05:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You can position the center of holy hold essentially anywhere you want. It's situational, but the situation is "the target is next to a wall".

And using the alignment descriptor restriction as a balancing method is a joke. --Foxwarrior (talk) 05:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Alignment descriptor isn't a balancing method all by itself. At most, it justifies adding 1 extra die of damage/healing/whatever. (Restrictions based on deity, on the other hand...) And... can you center the holy hold inside an object? I'm pretty sure you can't. And I'm also pretty sure that you need line of effect... I'll have to look at the spell description. --Luigifan18 (talk) 17:16, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

So you have to do a bit more thinking in the scrying phase. --Foxwarrior (talk) 18:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I didn't intend for the spell to flout line of effect, so I changed that, actually. (What do you mean, you have to do more thinking in the scrying phase?) --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The scrying phase is that long period of time before you cast time stop and kill your target with a barrage of spells before they get a turn or even an immediate action. --Foxwarrior (talk) 19:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Wait, I thought your spells couldn't affect other creatures while time stop was in effect. Really, the best you can do is litter the field with hazards. Or delayed blast fireballs.

The only reason why holy hold can work in conjunction with time stop is because the period when the ring is shrinking is treated as a delay before the actual effect of the spell kicks in - said actual effect being the immobilization. Holy hold is actually just like delayed blast fireball in that respect. The reason for holy hold having a lower spell level than delayed blast fireball is the delay being mandatory and non-adjustable in the case of the former. Though now that I think about it, holy hold can also be likened to a stultifyingly long-lived hold monster set up as a contingent effect, with the triggering condition being bull-rushed into a confined space by a ring of forceful hands working in unison to enclose the creature into a space smaller than it's actually capable of occupying.

And I still don't quite get what you mean by "scrying phase". --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Well I was going to rate this, but...

...but then I couldn't force myself to read past Volume 3: Chapter 9: Verse 84 of the Three Part Novel that is this spell.

Good god, shouldn't this just be "This spell grapples you, DC whatever" or whatever its supposed to do? Why is it so loooooooooooooong? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Because, as always, I want there to be as few loopholes as possible. --Luigifan18 (talk) 01:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

The more you write, the more chance there is for loopholes to appear. I find it hard to imagine anyone using this. Even if it was perfectly balanced, it's still so freaking long that it would grind the game to a screeching halt in the middle of combat as they have to suddenly read this legal document. --Dragonexx (talk) 00:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I reread it again, and honestly, I don't see how it's too long. It's actually rather concise, considering what it does, how unique the effect is, and how thoroughly the effect needs to be explained given said uniqueness. It doesn't even grapple you; it bull-rushes you into an infinitely tight space, forming a ring of light around your body that holds you completely immobile. (I've written much worse stuff — Ukemi, Veles Whirl, and Ice Spike come to mind, and heck, I'll admit that Somewhere Over The Rainbow might be a bit longer than it really needs to be.) This really isn't that bad. --Luigifan18 (talk) 06:50, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

"Ukemi, Veles Whirl, and Ice Spike come to mind, and heck, I'll admit that Somewhere Over The Rainbow might be a bit longer than it really needs to be."

Understatement of the century. Pardon me, I'm finally at Volume 8: Chapter 11: Verse 7, Novel Two. So far I have gleaned "yo this spell holds you in place". I'm sure all these extra words add something else other than that. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:00, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

(RESET INDENT) Alright, real talk for a second. I finally did read it, and I'm gonna cut it down.

• Change effect to "Cylinder (50-ft radius, 10-ft high)". Much of that is stuff for later, and things are measured in 5 ft blocks, hence 10 ft.

• Change duration to a set duration, this multiple duration nonsense is overly granular. It's a 5th level spell, minutes or 10 minutes is fine, hours is a bit much, and the less there is said about years the better. If you want it that long duration, that's what permanency is for.

• I'll recommend changing the save to either Reflex or Will, or even "see text", but the key point here is that you'll only get one save.

Here's my changes.

A ring of light appears whose border is impassable by creatures, though you may exclude any number of creatures from this effect. Creatures which do not fit entirely within the cylinder on creation are also unaffected. Passage through the wall is impossible unless a creature succeeds on a (Reflex? Will?) save.

Objects can pass through the barrier, but not creatures. If a creature is forced up against the barrier (such as being between the collapsing barrier and a wall) it takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage per caster level (maximum 40d6) with a Reflex save for half damage, and the creature is forced through the barrier.

Each round, the cylinder contracts by 10 ft. When the cylinder collapses to 0 ft, any creatures in its effect are immobilized and left helpless. These creatures remain bound for (DURATION). Bound creatures may attempt to escape once a round by making a Strength check equal to the spell DC, or an Escape Artist check of 15 + the spell's caster level. Disintegrate also removes the binding effect.

(If you want to keep the alignment component...)

Evil creatures take a -2 penalty to the saving throw to this spell, while good creatures cannot be harmed by this spell.''

I tossed out the antimagic field thing, since the only reason it's there is because you compared it to wall of force. I don't do that, so no need for disclaimers. I tossed out the high jump thing. Just make it a cylinder, it's easier. I changed your Strength check, because 30 + caster level is impossible, even for barbarians. I tossed out the ring of light increasing in height, metamagic can handle that and I find it being effectively Large and smaller creatures only to be a good and important nerf, intentional or not. I tossed out the time stop thing, that was utter bollocks. I can go into more detail if you need, but I assure you.... big sweaty bollocks slapping in your face. Just pounding it. Just pounding it. Pounding away.

With that, it should be a lot shorter. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The jumping bit is there because the ring's height isn't infinite; logically, it should be possible to hop over it, especially if you're big enough. The height increasing with caster level serves to counteract that somewhat. Also, this spell was designed from the beginning to work wonders in tandem with time stop, much like delayed blast fireball does. That's why it works on a delay like it does, instead of just cutting to the chase and conjuring a straightjacket of light around the target. Time stop is supposed to make it better.

The Strength check, however, is quite excessive in hindsight. --Luigifan18 (talk) 15:55, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, you do only have to save once. If the ring would crush you against an object, you make a Fortitude save for half damage, but either way, you're outside the ring afterwards, and as a result, you don't have to worry about getting straightjacketed when it would have shrunk down enough to encase you all by itself. Ergo, you don't get a Reflex save, because you don't need to make one. If you don't get crushed or otherwise get outside the ring by the time it's shrunk down enough to completely encapsulate your space, it forms a solid mass of light to encase and immobilize you, but you get a Reflex save to escape at the last second. So holy hold has two separate saves for two separate end-states, but any given creature only has to make one or the other. --Luigifan18 (talk) 05:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The point is this spell simply requires too much work. 'End-states' are things for flowchart makers and programmers to consider. A bunch of tipsy, Cheetos-powered nerds sitting around a table rolling dice would look at this article and throw up their hands, shout "Yeah, fuck that noise," and go for hold monster or something of the sort instead. An ability that doesn't have some profound effect on the game world at large just isn't worth all this effort to understand. --Sulacu (talk) 11:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Except the end-state thing isn't that complicated. Either you're stuck in the shrinking ring when its diameter gets small enough to completely enclose you (in which case you have to make a Reflex save against being bound), you get caught between the shrinking ring and a solid object (in which case you have to make a Fortitude save against being crushed), or you get out of the ring before either of the above happens (in which case you get off scot-free). --Luigifan18 (talk) 17:20, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Dude, the whole wiki has been telling you your articles are too long for several years now. This is one of your shorter ones. And I've looked; all but two of my spells are shorter than this in terms of pure text. Why do you keep denying it when people tell you time and again your stuff is tl;dr and just not very usable in a tabletop game? The end-states quip was meant to be humorous more than anything; it's all these arbitrary odds and ends you put into everything... Just one example out of many; for what reason is there an ⅛ in there? I will keep shouting 'Less is more.' at you until it sinks in. --Sulacu (talk) 20:51, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

You're a touch late. I've already changed the spell a bit according to Eiji-kun's suggestions, and it's now a bit simpler than it was... but I didn't follow Eiji's suggestions verbatim. Let me explain why. I refuse to take out the Jump check, since it logically should be at least theoretically possible to jump over any wall that's not attached to a ceiling if you're good enough at jumping. (In practice, it might not be possible if you can't fit in the space between the wall and the ceiling, assuming that there is a ceiling, but that's the sort of environmentally-dependent situation that should be left for the DM to worry about.) Likewise, the ring should grow in height as your caster level increases to make jumping over the wall non-trivial at higher levels. Furthermore, the save for being crushed by the ring will remain a Fortitude save because Fortitude is all about withstanding physical trauma, and really, quick reflexes can't help you when you don't have enough room to move. Let's say you literally get trapped between the holy hold wall and some other walls, so that you can't run out of the way. In that scenario, a Reflex save can't help you; to prevent saving throw denial, I made Fortitude the default for when you get crushed. Likewise, the duration has to be long enough to carry the subject to prison and lock them up; holy hold's purpose is detaining people. I did, however, make the duration much shorter than it was before. And, of course, I didn't take out the time stop combo, as I came up with this spell specifically as something that would be made better by time stop. I did, however, weaken the interaction a bit, namely changing it so that creatures subjected to time stop take a −4 penalty on their save against holy hold instead of automatically failing. --Luigifan18 (talk) 21:06, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The fact that you can jump over things is common sense, to be honest. I've had my characters jump over walls of force and other barriers before whenever it was plausible or when I was given the chance. If you leave a bunch of PCs with no way out of a situation except by jumping on stuff, trust me, they'll jump without you having to point it out. That said, vertical jump distance is still hard-capped by core to 8 feet for medium creatures if I recall correctly, from what I can tell, so making the ring increase in height without limit may be problematic nonetheless. Like I said, the spell is super-weak in terms of immediate effect, and stupid-strong under certain conditions, and this overhaul doesn't change that. --Sulacu (talk) 21:33, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to change it. This spell was never meant to be strong in terms of its immediate effect, and make up for it by working wonders when used in situations ideally suited to it (like the combination with time stop; that was meant to be its major saving grace from the get-go).

No, really. This spell was designed to be compatible with time stop. That's the whole reason it operates on a time delay — to work around time stop's "other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks" limitation. Basically, using holy hold with time stop works on the same principle as delayed blast fireball + time stop; you use the frozen time to set up a nigh-inescapable trap. The problem, of course, is that you never know how long your time stop will last; if your delayed effect triggers before your time stop wears off, it's completely ineffectual, due to the "other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks" clause, while if it triggers 1 or more rounds after your time stop wears off, your enemies get to react and the trap is possibly all for naught. But if the effect triggers right after your time stop wears off, your enemies are so very, very screwed. And unlike delayed blast fireball, holy hold's delay isn't adjustable, so you need quite a bit of luck to pull it off. --Luigifan18 (talk) 21:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)