User talk:Luigifan18/Mogeko (3.5e Race)

Ratings

Ganteka Future opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

I think everyone else covered the flavor of this well enough, so even ignoring that, you could just use the mechanics, right? Well, they're still also awful. The racial modifiers are a bit cumbersome and extreme. The gate thing is still garbage and needing to invest in and use a variant skill for one of their abilities, while normally fine is so totally unnecessary here I don't even care. Also, as several others have pointed out Misguided Worship is also worthless broken trash. I never rated this before because reading it was such a pain I didn't want to think about it, but it certainly doesn't deserve to be on the wiki, especially given how much it was attempted to be fixed up until this point.

Spanambula opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

Ignoring the source material, my objections are more or less what others have said: +4 Ability at LA 0 = bad. Free no-xp cost Gate = bad. Abnormal versions of abilities for no other reason than "I want my race to be a special snowflake" = bad. And judging by the fact that despite the novella-length conversation underneath the ratings, none of these issues have been fixed, I'm going to downgrade my "dislike" to an "oppose." Sorry, but this article makes the wiki a worse place.

	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Apart from the +4 Wis, which still favors Swordsages and other dex/wis focused characters, the Abducation ability is sillysauce and barely usable. Also, 25 speed is incredibly strange.

	Eiji-kun opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	So, while I await for replies to Nova, I figure this has been here long enough without additional fixes that I can rate it again. I believe I have gone in great depth previously why these shitty moogles should remain in their trash fetish fuel indie game, so I'll just summarize here with this: NO.

Discussion

I've been following this issue for some time. I feel I should really inform you that there are still quite a few problems with this. The first, and primary one, I feel I should address is your link in the relationships section. This is in no way shape or form, subtle. It is blatant and obvious, it just doesn't use the exact words. For example, if you were to link to a pornographic video with a black bar over the genitalia. It is still pornography. People will understand it and treat it as such, despite it not technically being shown. I did notice your conversation were you spoke about the qualities of the Mogeko that do not have to do with their main shtick. That is what you need. You need to ignore the sexual aspect completely. For example, look at the Succubus entry in 3.5. A succubus is a being that sleeps with men to steal their souls. You will see nothing about sex in this entry. The nearest it gets is kissing. --Novaform (talk) 03:46, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

(Watches it return to mainspace, and puts on his DM face.) "Are you suuuure?" You may want to keep working on it, the hungry Eijis lie at the gates ready to rip and tear anew.

Also stress bump to Nova's comment about looking at the succubus. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 13:52, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I took out the sexual references. Is there something I missed? --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:06, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Other than an early mention of them enjoying regular wanks, nothing I can see. LenKagetsu (talk) 14:14, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't sound as though these creatures could go on adventures in general for a whole ton of different reasons if just their flavor is any indication. Why is this a PC race instead of a monster? That would fit SO much better. --Ghostwheel (talk) 15:41, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm operating under the assumption that a Mogeko PC has already broken away from the pseudo-hive mind, so a lot of the flavor may or may not apply to it in the first place. --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

If this is the case, then you should redo the current flavor and take it more in that direction. "While most [race] are [xyz], those who become adventures are [abc]," and then expand on [abc] since the rest isn't particularly relevant to player characters. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:38, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

What Ghost said x1000. It will require more than a footnote, it's actually an entire shift in direction of focus.

Of course... none of that will save you. Fortunately for you I have a few things I want to do before I get back to this. But... it... is.... coming.....

Dusk of the Last Day. Only a few articles remain before the Elder Evil Eiji is reborn to bring dread judgement to you. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 23:59, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Er, what else am I supposed to say, other than that adventuring Mogekos (often) consider the antics of the larger Mogeko population to be an embarrassment? --Luigifan18 (talk) 00:14, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I see a bit of an issue with your premise. You are making a race intended to only be played as an aberrant of their society. I've seen the examples of Kobolds and Goblins used. I quite enjoy playing Kobolds. It is very interesting how they function in a player party, even as an ideal example of their race. They are very Socialistic. They do what they can for the group of which they are a part. Goblins are selfish. That makes their motivation easy. Gold. This can lead them into a party without trouble even without being an aberrant of their kind. Mogeko, on the other hand, at least as depicted here, have a bit of an issue with that regard. They have little motivation for joining an adventuring party without being an aberrant, at least in most cases.

You also seem to have not headed my first message. You did remove one link, but one of your other links are to, what appears to be, the playlist of which that other link was part. Other than that, you have not removed anything relating to the sexual premises of this race. Once more, I shall emphasize that a race whose entire premise is turning mortals to their unrestricted sexual desires, was made without any mention of sex whatsoever. I am sure that this race can be made with such guidelines.

I also question the reason why you gave it a racial trait that gives it an immunity to a single item. Especially when the item in question is unlikely to ever be seen in a campaign. There is also the issue that this trait, called "Pervy", has little to do with most of the effects of this item. How does being Pervy prevent the alteration of their... Intimates? How does it disallow them the belief of the opposite gender being weaker? How does it stop them from "Liking the End?" How about saving against the sheer monotony of stupid rules in FATAL; it might save them from the untoward aspects, but what about the sheer absurd rolling? What does being Pervy have to do with resisting Microcosm? There are many parts of this item that the race should have little ability to resist, and even if they did have reason, I don't see the need to give them an immunity to a single item. --Novaform (talk) 03:57, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I made this a while ago, some parallels can be drawn with the Mogeko in that they are both perverted little creatures, yet no one raised a stink about mine. It's all about you handle the subject… do pyggas masturbate? Probably, I don't like thinking about it too much. Now most of the offending has been removed, so that's good. But there is a bit of matter only some have touched about: The crunch. Why do they have a racial trait that make them immune to a joke minor artifact? Why is their religion a racial trait? Why +4 Wisdom, from how they are described they should have a penalty. Why do they have super scent? Why is every single one of them capable of kidnapping? Are you sure that's a racial trait and not an artifact or trait of their homeplane? I only briefly slogged through the TV tropes, so my grasp on the source content is poor. --Leziad (talk) 06:02, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

(The sign of the Elder Evil Eiji has become overwhelming. You feel your article crawling on your back. Death is coming very soon.) -- Eiji-kun (talk) 06:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

The Codex Eijites approves of this Exterminatus

"Nuclear launch detected."

As promise, once returned here, I would bring my wrath upon it with holy prometheum and the rage of the gods. Though I am good, I shall not be merciful. Remember that I want to help you... but I will not be merciful.

So for an article supposedly devoid of obscene materials, I sure am seeing a bunch of them. As others have pointed out, the half-hearted "fixing" of the link by going from a perverse scene to merely the playlist with the perverse scene. The fact that their entire shallow existence has "masturbation" as a major highlight of their race. I blame the source material and you alike. The source material for being shitty moogles. And you for not finding a better way about this. The succubus, the pygga, these are the things you should ape. But, I will return to this in due time. Because this isn't really about the fluff anymore. Or at least I don't need to handle it, others have already repeated (several times) their grievances. If you remember with the original talk page, I said that there were so many towering monuments to insanity being erected I couldn't even get to the mechanics. Oh those mechanics, where to start?

• +2 Dexterity, −2 Constitution, −4 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom. Oh ECL 1 and yet +4 bonuses. Always a recipe for disaster, we come with a bad start. +4/−4 is not balanced, no more than +20/-20 is. +4 is far more valuable than any −4 due to the way ability scores work, and given the race fluff, Wisdom seems to be the LAST thing these guys possess. "But they are trackers of muh lolis!" you cry. Then give them bonuses to tracking. Wisdom is a lot more than having keen senses, it's also wisdom and insight, things these shitty ripoffs clearly lack if their fluff has any merit. Recommendation: Kill the +4, make a +2, and reconsider if they are wise at all in the first place.

• Monstrous Humanoid (Anthro, Cat, Extraplanar). Minor nitpick. Good that you have extraplanar, and anthro is a homebrew subtype so that's fine, but why cat? There isn't exactly a cat subtype, and it's way too broad to be just them (their catness is covered by the anthro subtype), so it's pretty pointless. As an aside, I find them more likely to be evil outsiders or fey, given what they are. Utterly reprehensible, living on another plane, prone to kidnapping. It's very fey, and not very monstrous humanoid. Recommendation: Either make it "Mogeko" for the specificness of it (which is IMHO pointless but at least doesn't bring up questions) or ditch entirely, anthro covers your needs.

• Mogeko base land speed is 25 feet. More annoying than anything, 25 ft is really annoying to deal with, especially considering things like speed reductions with armor. Given that they are slower than humans, 20 ft should do. The "chase scenes" in the videos showed nothing really unusual. If anything, it shows they possess endurance for the long distance running to chase. Recommendation: Drop to 20 ft. Add Endurance if you really must.

• Racial Skills: Mogekos have a +4 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks, as well as a +2 racial bonus to Search checks; hiding from a Mogeko is damn-near impossible. They also have a +12 racial bonus to Scent checks by virtue of having the scent special quality (see below). However, they take a −2 racial penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks, as they're too stupid to lie effectively, too small and cute-looking to be taken seriously when they try to threaten someone, and nobody likes them due to their lustful tendencies. Actually, this is (almost) fine, though the fluff is really unnecessary. I don't think very much of a Scent skill (an argument for another day), but the modus operandi concerning having (ability) and interacting with skills related to it is +8. Notice +8 Swim checks for beings with a Swim speed, +8 Climb checks for climb speed. Ergo, +8 for Scent.

• Scent (Ex): Mogekos have a keen sense of smell, and can sniff out their prey with ease. They innately have the Scent special quality. They can detect a creature up to 60 feet away by smell (120 feet upwind, 30 feet downwind), and pinpoint a scent within 20 feet. From the videos I have seen, I haven't really seen them with Scent, nevermind having super scent. Double range and a huge pinpoint range (normally 5 ft) and this really becomes blindsense 30 ft plus double range scent. Again, from the source materials, unless the heroine had Darkstalker, there were scenes with them being very close yet clearly out of their senses. Recommendation: Are you certain they have Scent period? Even if they do, consider the strength of blindsense 30 ft and double range scent.

• Abduction (Sp): Once per year, a Mogeko can use gate, as the spell, to drag a creature from another plane to the Mogeko Plane (or whatever plane the Mogeko happens to be on). This ability only works on a creature that is currently sleeping (or in a sleep-equivalent state) and on some sort of currently-moving transport (such as a ship or carriage). A Mogeko can only choose a creature to abduct if it is currently scrying on the creature in question; otherwise, it abducts a random creature. When the subject wakes up, it is suddenly on the same plane as the Mogeko (though it might be on an illusionary copy of the transport, at the Mogeko's option). The subject generally winds up 1d10 miles away from the Mogeko who called it, in a random direction. The Mogeko has no control over the creature(s) it calls, but the called creature(s) are granted no special ability to return to their own plane; they must find a way home on their own. The Mogeko does not pay any XP cost for using this ability. The creature to be abducted is entitled to a Will save to avoid being dragged through the portal, and gets a +4 bonus on its saving throw if its CR is at least 2 more than abduction's caster level. If the would-be victim outright outclasses the Mogeko, abducting it will likely be next to impossible (if not actually impossible); if the victim's CR is at least 4 more than abduction's caster level, it gets a +8 bonus, and if its CR is at least 6 more than abduction's caster level, it can't be abducted at all. Even though a sleeping creature is usually considered to be willing to be subjected to an effect, Abduction is an exception to this rule; the victim is automatically considered unwilling. The caster level is equal to the Mogeko's character level, and the spell level is equal to ½ the Mogeko's character level, rounded down (minimum 1st, maximum 9th). The save DC is 10 + spell level + the Mogeko's Charisma modifier.

Ah, we have arrived. The glorious tower of rot atop a broken throne! Gate. Gaaaate. Yeah, altered gate, but gaaaaaaaate! There are many things wrong here. There are many things which must be erased.

First thing is, I think it's a bad implementation of the source material, period. Nothing, nothing I can see anywhere, seems to suggest this is some universal racial trait mogekos possess. Everything points it out to being something either rare, unique, or at least non-racial. It is a McGuffin, it is the catalyst for the plot of this game that someone is ported over into their realm of rape. Think about how it would break the game by itself. The heroine runs away, and they wait a few hours for her to inevitably get sleepy and rest (a sitting target for these supposed expert trackers) or she's moving while resting on a transport and they just port her back into rape range with any one of their NI mogeko buddies (because of course there are many, they swarm). Think about how it changes the D&D setting they are placed in, where a gaggle of level 1 mogekos (who are clearly working together in mass as per their description) can decide to port in the King of Importantland into whatever plane they are on, both abducting them in the first place and bringing them to possibly certain doom if they happen to be chilling on the Negative Energy Plane, in Baator, or even in any normal terrain which has 10 miles of hazards. The ocean says hello! You've added a save, but it's done nothing for the assassination quality of this ability. It just means they get a save, so you might need to use a few more mogeko mooks before you can start World War 3 by kidnapping/killing the political keystone of your world. Remember too that importance =/= CR, so a CR limit just keeps you from killing Tiamat with this ability, you can still pluck anything from CR 7 down at level 1 by spamming this.

Of course, as a 1/year ability, it's somehow both grossly overpowered AND completely pointless. It is a non-ability! I could make a race of McMoogles who can shit antimatter 1/lifetime, which would be incredibly stupid and yet also very pointless as a race trait as you will never use it. And as a PC, you will never use it, or you will use it for things PCs do. You think you're gonna waste it away on the chance to chase after some pedobait? No, you're a goddamn PC, you're gonna use it to solve the point of the campaign! Turns out you DIDN'T need to save the princess from the dragon, she's in 10 miles! What's that about an evil orc warlord? A trip to hell and some naptime should solve that problem.

And again, for what? Because the plot of the game starts it off with "Now you're in Rapetopia, enjoy!" Bollocks! Bullcrap! As far as I know, the train had the ability to planeshift to the wet dreams of the FATAL creators and bring the heroine to OC Donut Steel Moogleland. It's useless! And yes, your snatcher is all about it. Well, too bad. Maybe it should have been a Snatcher specific thing to begin with (and oh, I will get to that on there as well...)

Recommendation: Nuke from orbit, and do not stop until you run out of nukes. Then nuke it again.

• Mind-Reading (Ps). Don't care, I suppose it's fine, next.

• Pervy (Ex). Nova covered everything I wanted to say, but I'll say it again. Not only does the name not make sense, nor does the immunity make sense, but it's niche of a niche of a niche of a niche. You might as well be immune to the slam attacks of green penguins with mohawks named Greatzel riding a sphinx, but only during night on a racetrack. Recommendation: Drop it so hard you'd think you're listening to dubstep.

• Misguided Worship: Because their "deity" is nothing more than smoked ham, Mogeko clerics and favored souls treat their Wisdom and Charisma scores as being 2 points lower than it actually is for the purposes of spellcasting and turning/rebuking undead. (This does not apply to their Mind-Reading and Abduction abilities. Also, keep in mind that just like any other race that has a patron deity, only Mogeko clerics and favored souls are restricted to worshipping Lord Prosciutto. Mogekos of other classes can, in fact, worship other deities, assuming that they are aware of said other deities' existence and willing to risk the wrath of their fellow Mogekos.) Even though you've told me otherwise, I still find this to exactly be baking in worship to a specific being. As a race feature. You realize that's really meant for things that are either genetic, or super-built into their culture and, in this latter case, it's really more of things like racial weapons and racial counters than this. All this does is focus PCs into worshiping ham or missing out on that sweet +4 Wis they really shouldn't have in the first place, and ignoring Cha. Oh wait, it only applies to two classes out of infinity. In that case, never be a mogeko cleric or favored soul lest you be screwed over. You can be a healer, or a druid, or a anything homebrew ever instead and ignore this. This "feature" is misguided, and serves no point but to pidgeonhole and confuse. Recommendation: BURN IT WITH HOLY PROMETHIUM! THE ONLY TRUE GOD IS EIJI!

Ah, you know... I have a feeling you still don't get it. So I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do the heavy lifting. Time to show you how to subtle. Here we go!

---

SHITTY MOOGLES

Shitty moogles are small cat-like beings from another dimension, with a hedonistic and sociopathic society bent on kidnapping and subjugating other species.

Personality
It is a small wonder that the shitty moogle species has survived this long. Slaves to their own dark passions, these hedonists have no ethical or moral constraints to their behavior. In other to keep from preying on their own, they instead prey on other species by luring them into their territory and stealing them away for their own purposes. Without the flow of other beings into their world, they would inevitably set upon themselves and tear themselves apart. As a result, their society is ruled by the strongest who sets the tone for all other shitty moogles to follow... or suffer the consequences.

Physical Description
Standing half as tall as a human, yet round and stout, they have the appearance of large rotund bipedal cats covered in yellow fur and with squinted black or red eyes and with thin curly black tails. Their species is dominated by the male of their kind, likely a result of their barbaric natures making it difficult for females to survive to adulthood, or perhaps merely due to the nature of their genes.

Relations
The shitty moogle race had long ago expended any good will with others, retreating to a demiplane known only as the Plane of Shit. Thus those seen outside of the Plane of Shit are a rare sight, often outcasts of their kind who dare not return and have made their living as adventures. They survive only by the fortune that none have found a proper entrance to the Plane of Shit, lest hordes of paladins storm in to cleave and smite all that they see in this blasted forgotten land.

Outside of the Plane of Shit, shitty moogles are either unknown, or loathed if they are recognized. Shitty moogles do well to keep their heads low, and their noses clean, lest they find themselves lynched.

Alignment
Shitty moogles are usually chaotic evil, though exiles may be of various alignments.

Lands
The Plane of Shit is a terrible place, a land of dark colors and dreadful cities built on the backs of kidnapped creatures from beyond their world. Here, King Crap sits upon his throne surrounded by all the self indulgent pleasures he commands, its walls thick enough to drown out the screams of the shitty moogles he executes for not following his strict and brutal regulations.

Religion
Perhaps as a mockery to the concept of religion, or perhaps due to the madness of their current king, those in the Plane of Shit worship a slice of ham known as "Lord Jarring-Tone-Shift". The absurd nature of the deity contracts sharply with the dark nature of the shitty moogles themselves. Exiles, freed from this restriction, may choose to follow other gods or may abandon religion altogether.

Language
Shitty moogles speak common, typically with verbal tickets involving the common phrase "shit".

Names
Shitty moogles usually refer to themselves as "Shitty Mog" or "Shit-tan", though some may adopt names from those outside their kingdom.

---

There. There we go. This looks much much better. And hey, we reduce "they're fapping in your face LOLOOLOLOLOLOL" to "they're passionate, their hedonists, they're evil... you now can choose if your game simply glosses over their evil, or if you want to go full FATAL and define them as pinnacles of sin and lust, depraved assholes with no redeeming qualities, sitting upon a field of broken children".

And THAT is how you do it. That is how you take pygga, ostensibly panty sniffing, panty fapping, dirty old men stereotypes.... that is how you take succubi, ostensibly evil femme fatalles not above betrayal, rape, murder, and mental and physical abuse... that is how you take something horrible and treat it with respect. By not mentioning it directly, by suggesting, and by letting the DM do his god damn job and decide exactly how far he wants to take this shitshow into adventures for adult lechery.

BOOM motherfuckers! -- Eiji-kun (talk) 08:12, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

The fluff ideas are actually good, and I'll probably implement them. The mechanics stuff will need a bit more thought, though. --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:18, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, regarding the mechanics (and some miscellaneous complaints)...

• Kobolds are socialistic, huh? I'd imagine Mogekos being the same way — even the aberrants who don't buy into that "we are a single entity" mumbo-jumbo are natural-made empaths and thrive best in a highly social setting.
• The playlist is for "Mogeko Castle with Voices", a fandub of Mogeko Castle that is really well-done in my opinion. It's gut-bustingly hilarious at points, but also quite poignant. Basically, the hyperlink is there so that readers can get a solid Mogeko Castle experience and have a decent idea of what the race is.
• The Cat subtype is something I've seen on a few other races on this wiki, and personally, if there are going to be different subtypes for different humanoid races (like human, elf, dwarf, and halfling), there should also be subtypes for different sorts of anthro humanoids. Besides, different subtypes opens the door for them to be affected differently by different sorts of things. I mean, let's face it, it would just be silly for a dog or a bear to go nuts over catnip. For a cat, it'd be expected.
• One of Eiji's criticisms of Abduction reads as: "You think you're gonna waste it away on the chance to chase after some pedobait? No, you're a goddamn PC, you're gonna use it to solve the point of the campaign! Turns out you DIDN'T need to save the princess from the dragon, she's in 10 miles! What's that about an evil orc warlord? A trip to hell and some naptime should solve that problem." That, to me, sounds like a fantastic reason to keep Abduction. Because it sounds like a really fantastic tool for the PCs to break out once in a blue moon to resolve a plot that might otherwise end in disaster. What's that, the BBEG just ran away to another plane? No problem, we can just drag him back!
• "Misguided Worship" was Ghostwheel's idea. He quite justifiably pointed out that Mogeko clerics could potentially be overpowered, so I introduced that "feature" in order to nerf them. I was also under the impression that clerics in general had to follow their race's patron deity, if it had one — that is, high elf clerics would have to worship Correllon Larethian, drow clerics would have to worship Lolth, dwarf clerics would have to worship Moradin, gnome clerics would have to worship Garl Glittergold, et cetera. Upon rereading the Player's Handbook, though, I found that I had it backwards; that is, if a given god is the patron deity of a given race, a cleric can't worship that god unless he or she belongs to that race. So, really, the only reason I'm keeping Misguided Worship around is to avoid making Mogeko clerics overpowered, I guess... If I do decide to tone down the racial ability modifiers (which I am considering), I'm definitely dropping this feature outright.
• I'm pretty sure that Mogekos aren't that cut-out for long chases; most of the chase sequences in Mogeko Castle are rather short, and Yonaka mainly gets away from the Mogekos by outrunning them. Besides, cats in general tend to lack stamina, so I suppose that's a sort of fridge brilliance. I'm keeping the Mogeko movement speed as is, but to avoid issues with wonky armor precedents, I'll just state flat-out that a Mogeko in medium or heavy armor moves as fast as a halfling in medium or heavy armor.
• Mogekos aren't completely lacking in insight. They're bizarrely philosophical and have a knack for knowing things that they have no business knowing. They generally don't use their insight to its full potential because they're morons. Also, the Player's Handbook itself states that "if you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom". Mogekos may be goofy, but they definitely have acute senses (they just never get to really take advantage of them from Yonaka's viewpoint in Mogeko Castle because they get stricken with hay fever, which is basically a plot contrivance). I do see where the issue comes from, though, as the Player's Handbook also says that "a character with high Wisdom may be sensible, serene, 'in tune', alert, or centered"; I dunno what they mean by "centered", but the rest of those terms, with the exception of "alert", make very poor descriptions of Mogekos. For now, I'm keeping the racial modifiers as they are, though I'll definitely consider dropping the Wisdom and Intelligence modifiers to +2 and −2, respectively. As for those who say that high penalties don't balance out high bonuses, I've got two words for you: ability damage. Getting reduced to 0 in any ability score takes you out of a fight (and Constitution 0 flat-out kills you), so any creature that gets hammered with ability damage to a score they're weak in is going to be in trouble. Yes, I know it could be considered Balance by Giant Salamander, but hey, ability damage makes for a great discouragement to min-maxing in general; as a DM, I know I'd have no qualms with abusing it.

So, yeah, that's how I'm defending the mechanics. (You'll notice that I didn't mention Pervy; I'm definitely dropping that one.) Now, anyways, I have some fluff to retool; Eiji had some really good ideas on that front. --Luigifan18 (talk) 22:32, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand Eiji's biggest problem with the Misguided Worship. Even if this weakens both Clerics and Favored Souls, all other wisdom based classes are unaffected by this solution. Druids, Bards, Swordsages, and many, many more are unaffected by this adjustment. This also is very weird when bringing up the fact of Clerics following an Alignment instead of a deity. In D&D atheists can be Clerics too.

There remains the issue where this scent lets them pinpoint in twenty feet. Why is their Scent more powerful than most? Why don't they have the standard Scent feature? --Novaform (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Hiding is supposed to be pretty much useless against Mogekos; it's explicitly and repeatedly stated in the source material that you cannot hide from them. Having a powerful scent ability is a large part of what makes Mogekos so good at detecting someone who's trying to stay hidden; indeed, when a Mogeko's sense of smell is blocked, such as by hay fever or a strong interfering odor, they become far less capable of finding things, to the point where hiding from them is actually possible.

As for Misguided Worship, that's a solution to the problem of overpowered Mogeko archer-clerics. It's not perfect, but the Mogekos are supposed to be super-perceptive, so I didn't want to lower their Wisdom outright and take away weaken that sweet, sweet bonus to Spot and Listen checks. --Luigifan18 (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and the page for the homebrew Scent skill explicitly says creatures with the Scent ability get a +10 racial bonus. Mogekos have stronger scent, therefore, they get a larger bonus. --Luigifan18 (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Then give them an extra +1 to the spot and listen racials and lower their Wisdom by 2. No reason to complicate things with extra mechanics. Surgo (talk) 00:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Do what Surgo says. As far as Scent... shrug it's something I'll take up with the Scent page later.

Luigi, you don't understand the difference between solving an encounter and solving a campaign. Gate pulling off stunts like that is game breaking. Its like if you're trying to run a survival horror game, but a player comes in with infinite food, being immune to fear and disease in a game all about avoiding infection, and otherwise being exactly counter to the game. It's like saying "you need to bring the ring to Mordor" and then Gandalf goes "walk to Mordor, lol no Teleport, drop ring as free action, Teleport back. Done." That's not fun, that's not a good thing.

I think you're overcomplicating the movement speed issue. Just make it 20 so it already fits. That's like going "well, I've built this car with only three wheels, oops. I could add a forth wheel and fix everything. Or I could tie a bunch of balloons and add a propeller to lift the broken part off so it's almost as good as the real thing!" Trust me, you'd be doing no favors with a 25ft move speed.

Megekos.

Insightful and philosophical.

Wat.

I am imagining trolls in a forum discussing the best way to groom children into slaves and how to avoid being caught by the cops with pride. Yeah, I see negative evidence to back up that claim. Especially since their behavior is so short sighted, I'd argue Wisdom penalties if anything. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 04:45, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

I decided to take the time to view some of this playlist you linked in order to better understand your arguments. By the time of this message I have seen the sixth video. I have seen no evidence to support that these creatures have any perceptive bonuses at all. And for the remainder of this message I issue a spoiler warning as I intend to give some examples as to why. The main character walking through a room full of these Mogekos during a meal time without being noticed. This is an example of spot checks being horribly horribly fumbled, even when the opportunity to take 20 is given, and the individual to be noticed is not making stealth checks. There is also the matter that on many occasions, the main character interacts with a number of these creatures without any mention of what she is. Also evidence of horribly missed perception checks. The ability to track people down, that you seem to imply these things have would be Search (Active) not spot/listen (Passive).

On another note, though still in spoiler territory, I have noticed no evidence of the race having any right to a scent trait. There was a scene in which one of these things claimed he would be able to locate the Main Character had he not had a stuffy nose. Assuming this was not a bluff, which would not surprise me considering this one made a "Little Girl Locator" (I see no reason to make one if he had such refined scent), this would be a single individual having this ability, it does not speak for the race as a whole. As example of a human with the Hunter's Sense stance of the Tiger Claw Discipline. This human would have scent. Not all humans have scent.

I also saw a scene in which the one-eared creature notices an odor before the main character. I took note that the main character noticed the odor about half the distance toward the source. Having a sense of smell twice as good as one individual person, does not equate to the scent racial trait. Example: Kobolds use scent to determine their relatives during a mating season to prevent inbreeding. This implies that their sense of smell is more attuned then humans. Kobolds to not have the scent racial feature. Furthur, this particular creature has given no evidence of having a stuffy nose.

On the subject of Wisdom Bonus. You have mentioned not understanding the word Centered. Like the word Serene, these are saying that a high Wisdom score implies a character that is calm, collected, patient, and will think things through before acting. Wisdom in D&D is one's ability to act with foresight and not to be brash or reckless. That along with the horribly botched "spot checks" I have witnessed lead me to believe that these creatures have very low Wisdom. Your argument of them being good at hunting does not give any evidence against this point, though it may warrant a bonus to Search. (Not Spot)

On the case of being good hunters I will point out, firstly, that the only evidence to this I have witnessed was a note found. The writer saying they could not find a means to escape and continued to be found. I do not see this as proof of a race being good hunters. It could simply mean that the writer found no way home. As a result, the only thing in this place to run into were the creatures. Eventually, a human will roll a one on hide/move silently when one of any number of creatures roll a twenty on spot/listen.

On the note of Gate. I have seen no evidence whatsoever of these creatures having any ability like this in any way, shape, or form. I have seen no evidence of the Main Characters presence, or any other non-Mogekos, for that matter, being a result of the creatures' influence. I have witnessed statements that human females in this world were a rare oddity. That factor implies that these creatures, in fact, do not have the ability to summon up human females. If they did, they would use it, and females would be far more abundant (even if it were to be only hints of their former presence.) in the world. I will admit to not having seen the entire story. I might not either, as I've no desire to continue it, but that is a matter of opinion. So I understand that there may be something later to reveal that there was a conscious effort for her presence there. This, however, doesn't give any evidence toward every individual in the entire race as having this capability. I have no fear of spoilers, should you like to provide evidence against my arguments using them in future messages. --Novaform (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Mogekos are surreal and unpredictable, and have more individuality than they'd like to admit. A lot of the Mogekos who "failed spot checks" to notice Yonaka were in all likelihood simply not interested (at least not in that way; they don't seem to mind having someone around to listen to their silly ramblings). And during the dinner scene, the Mogekos were, well, focused on their dinner. Not on hunting high school girls. And in-game, it's entirely possible to simply peek at the dinner scene and then GTFO. Mogeko Castle With Voices just had Yonaka dancing around the dinner hall for the lulz.

Spoiler warnings, but when Defect Mogeko gets shot by King mogeko and subsequently faces off with the horde to distract them, he explicitly notes that the smell of his blood will mask Yonaka's scent, giving her an opening to get away. So, yes, the Mogekos do have a powerful sense of smell, and they do use it to hunt.

You do realize that if I replace the Mogekos' Wisdom bonus with a Wisdom penalty, they'll be severely underpowered, right? A bonus to one score can't possibly compensate for penalties to three others, especially when one of the penalized scores is Constitution, the stat that should never ever be a dump stat. --Luigifan18 (talk) 13:30, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Then they have shitty scent, I don't see why they need better scent than everything else in the game. Just give them regular scent. Ideally, if you have a lot of racial features, a −2 to ability score total makes sense, but ideally you want a total of +0, something like this: −2 Str, −2 Dex, +2 Con, −2 Int, −2 Wis. That makes some sense; they are small, relentless pursuers and are about as smart and wise as plastic bag. Next you give them scent, some minor thought detection, skill bonuses, 20 ft. land speed and nix the gate bullshit. There, done, it's a viable if somewhat boring race, which is a lot better than the load of BS it is now. That won't fix the flavor, but others said those better and more eloquently than I could. --Leziad (talk) 14:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Those racial bonuses are nearly the polar opposite of what they currently are; the only thing staying the same is the presence of an Int penalty! Four −2 penalties and one +2 bonus adds up to −6. (If the Wisdom modifier gets reduced, the Intelligence penalty is getting tempered as well, which is going to make me have to rework the Mogeko Sage quite a bit — one of my main reasons for not fiddling with it.) Abduction could be made Snatcher-exclusive, but that'll force me to rework the usable interval (generally usable less frequently at earlier levels) to compensate for taking out the Mogeko's default once-per-year limitation (I want "once per year" to remain the default frequency). Really, I'm happy with the present arrangement of bonuses and penalties, as I feel that they fit the Mogeko mold quite nicely. What I've seen of Mogeko Castle makes me believe that the Mogekos genuinely are very perceptive and aware; however, they don't use their awareness to its full potential because they're morons. They're also supposed to be frail but nimble, like elves. And I want them to be able to pinpoint creatures at a semi-decent distance; again, they're supposed to be impossible to hide from. Honestly, I'm waiting for Mogeko Castle Gaiden to reveal some more information about the Mogekos before I make any huge decisions about their racial abilities.

Oh, and I don't see how falling for a variant of the literal red herring trick means that you have "shitty scent". Even bloodhounds fall for that! --Luigifan18 (talk) 01:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

If you don't want them at a minus six total, then adjust other scores. I never said they needed a total of minus six, I just said that I disagree with the argument you're giving for their high wisdom scores. I did notice that those making the videos added a few things of their own, however, it seemed fairly easy to tell between their edits and the game itself. It seemed to me that the walk through the mess hall was the standard gameplay. If this is the case, are you telling me that you are picking and choosing parts of this game as canon and other parts as non-canon arbitrarily? On the argument that they just didn't care about her presence, I have come to understand that women are a major part of this society. On top of that, there were many of these things who were just walking around at random and not doing anything of note. Despite this, they still completely ignored her.

You say now that these things can be very philosophical and aware. I still have not seen evidence of this at all. I have seen a select few that show a touch of abnormal advancement, perhaps. But that would be akin to an orc that rolled 18 for intelligence. It is very smart, above average, and then some with a 16. This doesn't prevent his entire race from having an intelligence penalty. I still think that they seem to be far better at Search, as apposed to Spot/Listen. And the existence of other classes, reliant on this race, does not repair to excuse any issues with the race itself. Having to rework projects dependent upon it because of fixes has no push in the arguments of these repairs, though I can understand why it would make one apprehensive to pursue alterations.

Your argument is valid, that this example does imply that they should have a scent ability. It does not, however, give them reason for some sort of special case on scent. I do not put much stock in the argument of "I want them to be able to pinpoint creatures at a semi-decent distance" as a good excuse for granting powers. Else, many classes and races would be filled with arbitrary nonsensical abilities. I'm not sure you understand the implications behind the phrase "impossible to hide from." This implies that no matter where you go, even to other planes, it knows where you are. I think you mean that they can eventually find anything, which means they can be hidden from, just not forever. Even this, however, seems to be very overpowered, none-the-less. I also have not seen evidence of this. I have seen the main character get away from INDIVIDUAL Mogekos for indefinite periods of time. Even if one cannot hide from the race as a whole, this does not mean, any individual, so, singular, member of the race can always locate a specific person no matter where they are, such as the afterlife. Also, what evidence is there, at all, that each member of this race can always track a thing down, without any trouble?

Again, I do not much like the argument of "it is my preference" in regards to trying to build a functional piece of work, or making an accurate translation of source material. As such, I would like to request a more substantial argument on why these things have an abduction ability at all, let alone, as an ability that any, and every, including little just born larvae would be able to do. --Novaform (talk) 05:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, you never did answer as to, if they can all do this abduction thing, why do we see so few little girls in this game. --Novaform (talk) 05:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

"I think you mean that they can eventually find anything, which means they can be hidden from, just not forever." Uh, actually, yes, that is what I meant. A Mogeko would be just as flummoxed as anyone else if their quarry ran off to another plane, which is why they love divination magic so much.

"Even if one cannot hide from the race as a whole, this does not mean, any individual, so, singular, member of the race can always locate a specific person no matter where they are, such as the afterlife." This is also true. You could very well manage to hide from a Mogeko, only to be found by another.

"I have seen the main character get away from INDIVIDUAL Mogekos for indefinite periods of time." Of course she did. It's entirely possible to elude Mogekos by running the hell away from them; in fact, that's the recommended solution in-game! I made them slower than humans on purpose!

"I would like to request a more substantial argument on why these things have an abduction ability at all, let alone, as an ability that any, and every, including little just born larvae would be able to do." Truth be told, I don't have one. Mogeko Castle is very vague on how Yonaka ended up at Mogeko Castle. That's why I'm waiting for the sequel to reveal more information on the Mogekos. If it doesn't give any indication that Mogekos have an innate ability to pull people to their plane, I'm dropping Abduction and making it Snatcher-exclusive.

"Are you telling me that you are picking and choosing parts of this game as canon and other parts as non-canon arbitrarily?" Mogeko Castle itself kind of invites the player to do that, as there's very little in the game that isn't at least somewhat vague. I've heard all sorts of theories on the game's events, including at least one that said that the events of the game were all in Yonaka's head and were simply her way of trying to deal with her unplatonic love for her brother and his murderous madness. I'm just trying to form a framework of the Mogekos that can fit into the D&D world and feels the same way as they do in their home game — bizarre beings with an unhealthy, immoral mindset.

As for Mogekos being insightful, you have to remember that they're morons and have very strange thinking patterns. Most of their philosophical nature is expressed in the form of weird ramblings (ex. "I hear them... the screams of the soul..."). But they do indeed ponder deep concepts when they're not in the grasp of loli lust. --Luigifan18 (talk) 17:14, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Heading to bed, but...

"Most of their philosophical nature is expressed in the form of weird ramblings (ex. "I hear them... the screams of the soul...")."

Where I come from, that's not philosophy. That's shitty teen goth poetry written on a geocities site. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 17:30, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

"I'm just trying to form a framework of the Mogekos that can fit into the D&D world and feels the same way as they do in their home game — bizarre beings with an unhealthy, immoral mindset."

This sounds like something that fits much better as a monster than as a PC race... but I think I (and others) have said this before... --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Old talk page?

One of the great tragedies of this article's deletion was the loss of the old talk page. That stuff was hilarious, and also contributed to the development of what the page is now. Is there any way the old conversations could be brought back? --Luigifan18 (talk) 11:31, 25 November 2017 (MST)

Bump, would like to see that.--Franken Kesey 13:31, 22 May 2019 (MDT)

Still in Main Space

Why is this still in the mainspace? It is a sandbox.--Franken Kesey 13:31, 22 May 2019 (MDT)

It would help if you said what was still in the mainspace, because this is not and we don't know what you're talking about. Surgo (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2019 (MDT)

This page is still found on SRD:Monstrous_Humanoid_Type and SRD:Extraplanar Subtype, as well as any page linking to user races. I tried refreshing both, and that did not work.--Franken Kesey 16:07, 22 May 2019 (MDT)

Thanks, fixed. Surgo (talk) 16:25, 22 May 2019 (MDT)