Talk:Shadow Pact Warlock (3.5e Class)

Class Features Comments

• Eldrich blast: "Enhancement bonus equal to one half level" --> what? That penetrates epic DR at level 12. You would be better off giving a blurb that it counts as a magic weapon with a total modifier equal to one half your level. Only one quarter of your level can be used for enhancement bonuses to the eldrich blast. The rest must be used to upgrade it like a normal magic weapon (flaming, frost, etc). By spending 1 hour in concentration, you can change the enhancements to your eldrich blast.
• Detect magic should start out requiring concentration and upgrade to Arcane_Sight.
• Shadow Wounds is weird. DR on a striker (to use a 4e term), seems a little off to me.
• Flight at level 6 is really, really good. I can't stress enough how that ability can trivialize encounters. I consider flight a wizard-level ability until well past 10th level (others may disagree on this point).

Here is how I would lay out the class features:

• Level 1: Detect magic at will (it is the Paladin detect evil at will equivalent).
• Level 2: Warlock's Curse - move action to target, deal +1d6 damage against that target. Can only designate one creature to curse at a time, but it lasts until a new target is chosen.
• Level 5: Arcane sight
• Level 6: Hover up to 10 ft. above the ground, reduces fall damage by half.
• Level 6: Warlock's Curse +2d6
• Level 10: Warlock's Curse +3d6
• Level 12: Fly 30 ft. (perfect) -> maneuverability is annoying to figure out, I find
• Level 14: Warlock's Curse +4d6
• Level 18: Warlock's Curse +5d6

Warlock's curse is there to replace shadow wounds. It also allows that eldrich blast to scale independently of maneuvers a little so that a full-attack action is still viable at high levels. You'll still want maneuvers to add buckets of d6s, but at least the full-attack would still be an option. --Aarnott 19:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, on the subject of flight - the class is rogue-level, so thus, Aarnott's criticism is valid. However, wizard-level is about spells being the level of balance. fly kicks in at 5th character level, so any flight you grant should be comparable to this. Likewise, overland flight kicks in at about 9th character level, so by that stage, all-day flying is totally fine.

As far as my opinion on the class goes - way too much combat stuff, not enough non-combat or story stuff. - MisterSinister 20:57, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Only combat stuff as class features isn't unusual for a ToB class, I don't think. Plus the detect magic is more non-combat utility than combat utility. --Aarnott 21:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

If it matters I believe Warlock proper gets flight at 8th? Which I find to be a happy medium between Fly and Overland Flight IMO. -- Eiji-kun 23:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The warlock proper is wizard-level imho. I value flight higher than other people probably, however. --Aarnott 23:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, only combat is not unusual for a ToB class. However, I consider this bad on every level, because it gives you no tools to solve problems past about level 5 which aren't Magical Tea Party. The warlock proper, according to the balance points on this site, is fighter-level, which I totally agree with. - MisterSinister 06:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Why the warlock is wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 06:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Weird, I find warlock to be the defacto high rogue-level. Of course part of the problem is that we ARE working with different scales here. For some reason some people got it in their heads "rogue level is rogue abusing bad wording and getting epic feats" and "wizard level is pun-pun". On the other side you have things where a single trick is enough to make something a higher level than it is. And in the end no one agrees. Case in point, I can tell before I even click that link (though I will check) that its gonna be the one-super trick I know of warlock, mass nausea. And while I can go on and on why one trick does not wizard level make, I can at least say there's a non-too-insignificent series of monsters outright immune to nausea, in which case warlock goes right back to doing piddly damage and having a few nice, but hardly amazing, tricks. And you can compare that one to rogue sneak attack, who can get some very impressive damage, provided he CAN sneak attack.

Anyway I'll try to avoid the urge to derail the conversation into that (cause I can go on and on) and end my arguement there. On flight again, if it helps, you can also pull reference from the various LA 0 flying races. They usually gain full flight by 12th. On the other hand I'd say that your class should give you more than your race, so 12th is probably an overestimate and you can usually partily fly by 8th as well, giving further evidence that a more or less at will fly by 8 is a good number. -- Eiji-kun 06:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The thing is that that's a major hallmark of wizard-level classes--you counter them with creatures and encounters specifically immune to their abilities. Sleep being a problem for the DM? Bring elves. The wizard's abusing glitterdust? Suddenly grimlocks is all the party faces. Destroying encounters with black tentacles? Suddenly everything has super-high grapple checks. Solid fog or walls of stone stopping enemies from using even a fraction of their full potential? Bring on the incorps or teleporters. Plus there are enough templates (and the DM can just up and create monsters) that you can have monsters that are immune to multiple encounter-ending abilities. From what I've seen, bringing up or fielding creatures that are specifically immune to a mega-shtick that wins combats is a common response to wizard-level classes. --Ghostwheel 08:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

(Reverting back to one indent)

This class isn't quite finished yet. So don't treat it as finished. Out of combat abilities are to come.

• Eldritch Blast: That is how it is going to be. I was just putting off a full description of it. Technically, at no point is it magical at this point.
• Detect Magic: Hmm, I've yet to take a look at how detect magic improves over time.
• Shadow Wounds: This was move to match with the CA Warlock. The class is actually going to be more of a controller/debuffer than a damage dealer.
• Flight: Noted;

--Havvy 08:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Eldritch Blast and DR, damage reduction doesn't apply to supernatural abilities in the first place (see here) pretty much regardless of what the damage type is. So all it would really be doing if you gave it an enchancement bonus would be jacking up your attack bonus to compensate for the fact that this form of EB isn't a touch attack. That's probably a sound idea, but should probably scale to one per four levels or something so that it eventually has full BAB when using eldritch blast. That's pretty in line with something like Ghosty's modification to the swordsage that lets it have full BAB on strikes and what-have-you. - TG Cid 13:58, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Except then you are behind on fighter with a magic composite shortbow. The medium BAB is because you cannot be disarmed and other goodies of having what amounts to a natural weapon, but this one being at range. As far as DR, that'll have to be an exception to the rule. --Havvy 14:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Adoption

Anybody want to adopt this? --Havvy 16:39, 6 May 2012 (UTC)