Talk:Vampire Lord (3.5e Class)

UNIQ6fed67c940fc4507-item-25--QINU?

What exactly it going on with this? It looks like some kind of code malfunction. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:24, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not on our end, at least not anymore.

How many levels is this class supposed to be anyway? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 04:13, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, it's getting cleaned up. Mind the error on the skills list.

I do have some critique (to which tl;dr you got too strong and low level and too weak at high level) but I'll wait til it's actually done to throw in my 2 cp. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:29, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

In case anyone was wondering, that's what's known as "punycode" (no, really, it's the standard name). It's unicode encoded as ASCII. Surgo (talk) 04:18, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Balancing

I realy need help with balancing this. --Montwind (talk) 03:30, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

When I get a chance (sometimes between now and 3 hours~) I'll give it a look-see. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:41, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Critique

Phew, sorry, took a while to get some free time, let's have at it. Fair warning, I'll be blunt, but it's constructive criticism. Let's see what we got here.

Off the bat I see a few problems and they all can be summed up as giving the wrong abilities at the wrong level. You've got game destroying abilities at first level, and weak abilities at high level. That said, the base idea is sound and following the methods of WotC, while flawed, isn't a bad place to start.

First of all, I notice you're proficient in all armor (not something I usually associate vampires with), but no shields or weapons. So, uh, hope you took a level before this, or enjoy your -4 penalty to everything you do.

So, at 1st level you become undead, which is a pretty big benefit in and of itself. A load of immunities, a healthly HD, and so forth. People pay a level to obtain it (Necropoliton), so it's pretty much a level in and of itself. Personally I'd scale undead traits until 4th level. On the other hand, you have the "can't multiclass" rule which does prevent dips, but is kind of a hamfisted way of solving the issue and locks you in for the next 20 levels, no exceptions. I do not advise it.

The slam is fine, the resistance is fine. I don't suggest Spider Climb at such low level. While it can be pulled off at 1st, you already frontloaded things with undead, natural weapons, and resistances.

But now the first big thing: Blood Drain. While hard to activate (you must pin), drain is serious business, and I see no reason why it shouldn't just be ability damage. The hp gained from it is pathetic. Strangely enough you scale that, but that's not the part that needs scaling. If you scale anything, scale Con damage to Con drain instead.

And now the really big important one: Energy Drain.

Holy crap.

You realize that applying a negative level at level 1 is instant death for anything, right?

No save instant death.

No save instant death that will cause a wight to spawn in 24 hours.

And it scales too! God help you if you get more than 1 slam, that stuff multiplies! Who wants 5 x number of attacks negative levels a round, no save?

And this is level 1. Negative levels beyond nowhere NEAR this, no sir! Wizards, the king of the mountain, get their big negative level killer at 7th level, and not at will, and it's a really good spell.

Phew, what else...

Bonus Feats; boring, clumped, but mostly harmless. Attribute boost, par for course for a transformative class ala Dragon Disciple. Skills, not important, it's ok.

It's at this point I realize none of the text under the table lists the level. You should do that, if at least to prevent people having to scroll up and down going "when do you get Coffin Sanctuary?" Speaking of which, that's ok. I do recommend that you disregard the template's fixed caster level effects and just base all of them on class level.

Alternate form, it's ok. Vampire hide, it's ok but I'm sure some will be driven batty about the RNG destroying properties. Protection gives DR, it's ok. I prefer if it scaled smoothly, but that's personal preferent.

Oh, I missed one. Dominate. Yeah, what is Dominate Person (which comes into play at 9th) doing at 3rd level? Nevermind Dominate Person at will. No no no no no. You can turn anyone into your slave for day/level, because everyone will roll a 1 eventually. Go dominate a few called balors at level 3 and become invincible forever.

Children of the Night is ok, healing is ok, turn resistance, which should be a low level thing, appears curiously late at 8th. Even Necropoliton gives turn resistance right off the bat. Mostly so that they aren't auto-destroyed by clerics at level 1. Yeah, this negative level spewing badass can be dusted at first level pretty easily (turning gets harder as levels rise).

Lord of the Dead is super sanctuary. It's quite strong, and doesn't have any counters like "if you attack, your sanctuary breaks" or anything else. You really need those.

Vampiric Mind probably should be "at will" rather than "continuous".

Link is fine. Speak with blood is fine.

Blood Gush's DC is currently 10 + level + Cha rather than 10 + 1/2 level + Cha. I suspect that is a typo, otherwise the DC is nuts.

Eyes of the vampire is really good, fine at 12th, but maybe overkill. Well, it's fine.

Flight is fine at it's level.

Mastery of Form is an 8th level spell at level 13th at will, and kind of dangerous. It's basically permenant incorporeality, which is both inappropriate for vampires (you're a vampire, not a ghost) and dangerous.

Necromastery is ok at this level.

I always laugh at monk, with how one of its high level abilities is... Tongues. This is no different with Mastery of Tongue. This can be lowered just fine.

Parasite is the Blood Magus class feature isn't it? Also has the DC error there. It's fine I suppose.

Melt Blood comes suddenly. Though I don't see a purpose for it, it looks like something that would appear low level, since it scales. Probably not 1st (because of said frontloading) but you can pull this off low level.

Lord of Dreams comes late. Curiously I have been told making this at will is actually dangerous. Same reason not to have dominate at will; everyone will roll a 1 eventually. Kill any sleeping creature by spamming it every round for 8 hours. You need to restrict this.

Vision of Terror is abusable, setting it to "encounter" than a fixed time. It's a Save or Lose with a potentially unlimited duration, based on your patience. However, this does have the "save renders you immune" clause, and that probably should be on several other things.

Inhumane Speed comes out of nowhere. You're 30 ft for 17 levels and suddenly BLAM you're the Flash. Wot.

Blood Shaping is vague. Is this like Disguise Self? Alter Self? Shapechange? Probably best to reference a known spell or ability here.

And finally, and hilariously, at 20th level you stop being a vampire. Ok, yeah, you're still a vampire and it's kind of useful, but now you're just a normal guy with a blood fetish, and something about having your capstone remove the traits associated with who you are is hilarious.

Something about this class makes me think you took the Vampire and Vampire Lord templates as a baseline (good), but didn't know what powers should come when (bad), and then ended up adding extra powers to fill it out to 20 (generally bad). You probably don't even need this to be a 20 level class. Vampire + Vampire Lord is what, LA 11? You can probably do this class in 11-15 levels just fine.

I see promise and potential, but it needs some work before it's functional. Don't let the criticism stop you though, this is a strong start. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:23, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I will make appropriate changes right away. Montwind (talk) 05:33, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Is it any better now? If it still has major flaws please point out. I'm kind of blind sighted against those things. Montwind (talk) 07:57, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

"Vampire's Hide: Vampire Lord gains +2 natural armor at fourth level. Vampire Lord's bonus natural armor increases to +4 at sixth level. Vampire Lord's bonus natural armor increases to +6 at eighth level. Vampire Lord's bonus natural armor increases to +8 at twelfth level. Vampire Lord's bonus natural armor increases to +10 at sixteenth level. Vampire Lord's bonus natural armor increases to 12 at twentieth level." Does this stack with regular armor? "Dominate (Su): At fourth level Vampire Lord can crush an opponent's will just by looking onto his other eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must take a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed at a Will save or fall instantly under the Vampire Lord's influence as though by a dominate person spell cast by a 12th-level sorcerer. The ability has a range of 30 feet. This ability can only be used once per day." I'd say bump it up a few levels (dominate person is fucking powerful) and make it count as a dominate person spell cast as per a sorcerer of the vampire's CR. "Lord Of The Dead (Su):" If you make it a sanctuary effect against undead with mindless creatures receiving no save. (makes it cleaner) "Create Spawn (Su):" Does this apply the standard vampire template? "Also Vampire Lord gains speed equal to 1/2 Vampire Lord levels x5." Does this increase base speed? What speeds does this boost? " Vampire Lord can now telapthycly send messages and orders to his spawn with no range limit and his spawn is constantly under the effect of detect thoughts they do not get save against this effect." Does this cross planes? "Pool Of Blood (Su): At thirteenth level Vampire Lord's mastery over blood allows him to take transform himself into a pool of blood. While in this form vampire lord is immune to all physical attacks and can pass through small cracks also vampire lord cannot use any ability or attack anyone in this form." Should instead write that the vampire gains both Ooze and Swarm traits, and the blood drain works as a swarm attack. "Necromastery (Ex):" Can the vampire release a soul or put it in a receptacle? "Parasite (Ex):" Should specify that you can only do this to an adjacent willing creature. "or be frightened until end of the encounter or until they get far away from you (DM's decision" Frightened for 1 minute/10 rounds would be cleaner. Fluffykittens (talk) 20:00, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I will make the changes in a minute. Montwind (talk) 05:17, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

If there is still remaining major flaws don't be shy to point out. Like I said I'm kind of blind sighted against those things. Montwind (talk) 06:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent) "Also Vampire Lord gains movement speed equal to 1/2 Vampire Lord levels x5." Is this added to base movement speeds or after other multipliers?
"Vampire Lord gains Ooze and Swarm traits" Should specify what size swarm you are discussing here.
Fluffykittens (talk) 07:01, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Is there any remaining flaws or balance issues? 10:55, 8 May 2015 (UTC)Montwind (talk)

You misunderstood what I meant by "swarm size". A swarm is made up of tiny, diminutive, or fine creatures You should probably make it so it gains SRD:Swarm Subtype traits as a fine swarm, except for the vulnerability to wind effects. Fluffykittens (talk) 21:50, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

It should be better now. Montwind (talk) 08:19, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Some changes

I made some changes but I feel like something is wrong.

What ruffles thine feathers sir? Also you can sign your posts by writing ~~~~ after the post. Like this. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:52, 2 August 2015 (UTC)