Talk:Zola Defiance (3.5e Feat)

Balance

This is probably fighter actually. The save DC is equivalent to the save DC of the highest level spell a caster has, though it possibly suffers from a lack of attribute boosting, so it's not all that bad. The damage isn't awesome, but it's not trivial either, especially at lower levels where you don't suffer monster hit die inflation and getting a couple of people in line for a few d6 damage each isn't a bad use for a standard action. If it were daily limited I'd be with you on monk, but as an unlimited thing that probably keeps up for a while it's not bad. - Tarkisflux 08:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Tark, the earliest you can get this (level 3) gives you a grand total of 1d6 damage, and that's assuming you have full BAB! I don't care if this is in an AoE or not - it's not enough damage to make anyone care. To make matters worse, it's the most commonly-resisted damage type in existence. The scaling is just too slow to be of any real use at any level, in my opinion, and so thus, I believe it should stay monk-level. - MisterSinister 20:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, when you get it you don't care because it's round down, but at level 6 where monk stuff starts really falling behind this is doing 3d6 in a 30' line, save for half with a mediocre scaling DC, all day. Which is still not great, but it's not useless at that level on a fighter balance character since your options for the same action cost are: use this, use manyshot if you're a ranged build (which would probably be better at this level), or single attack somebody. It's a horizontal power option that scales slowly for mid level melee folk who have a feat to spare. It isn't as low in power as one of the skill feats and I'd honestly drop this near weapon focus / power attack / multishot honestly, and those are ranked as fighter level feats. - Tarkisflux 22:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I still think this is monk level. On average this is going to do what...5 or 10 damage to maybe a few opponents at 6th level. My first character could do better than that. And remember, you cannot power attack or use 99% of feats in conjunction with this. The minimum average hit points at this level is 14 (wizard with 10 con), so in two rounds you could take one out...but by then, the wizard has taken you out. The story gets sadder with other characters (the barbarian's d12 and 21 con by that level gives it 74hp). A monk without feats can do better than the option this feat gives. Change it if you *really* think this isn't monk level, I won't stop you. --Havvy 02:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing that this a monk level class feature, though I doubt that a monk could do better in a situation where this was actually appropriate to use. If this was the big thing that a class could do I'd laugh at them and ask "yes, and what would they really be doing in a round?" The problem is that is isn't a class feature, and you need to stop comparing this to them, or comparing with what a wizard could do in a round. It's a feat. And there are other feats at the fighter balance level that I'd place this as roughly equivalent to. Do you think this feat is substantially worse than Weapon Focus, Power Attack, or Multishot when taken on their own? Yes, this fails to stack with weapon focus. And you'd be better off spending your feats on stacking crap in most situations. Hence my "if you had a feat to spare" comment. It's not great, it doesn't stack and so doesn't fit into a lot of focussed builds, but it's not skill focus bad. And if you have a feat to spare, the lack of stacking is largely covered by the auto-scaling of the feat.

So no, I don't think this is a monk level feat just based on comparison with other ranked feats. But I won't be changing it's level. You put it up, and even though you transcribed it you get to assign it's balance point to it. If I really wanted to change it I'd go follow the balance level adjustment policy I wrote and get a community vote on the thing. It's not that important to me though, I don't think it's likely to see a lot of use in any event. - Tarkisflux

Looks fighter-level to me, monks don't have anything nice. Sure, fighters suck, but even a fighter can hyper-specialize into being half good. Remember, blasty wizards in fighter-level are considered really, really good for dealing xd6 at level x, and the main thing that limits this "overwhelming damage that is really awesome" is that assumption that they "can't do it all day". A single feat that gives half that damage all day long sounds fighter-level, since monks at level 10 are doing all of 2d6+4 damage or something 3/round (with a HORRIBLE attack bonus that likely to miss much of the time, what with MAD and all) while this feat gives you a whopping 5d6 with a chance of doing damage even if they make their save. --Ghostwheel 02:53, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Balance point changed. When those are taken on their own, they are worse. But if I had a feat to spare, I'd pick something that stacks with the rest of my feat choices. --Havvy 03:06, 11 November 2010 (UTC)