User talk:Franken Kesey/Elemental Ascendant (3.5e Class)/Old

Rating

ThunderGod Cid dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Since in most ways this class is similar to the Viveka or whatever it was called, I can't say I'm too inclined to repeat most of what its problems were. But I'm going to, anyway. First, the lack of mechanics for appearing in dreams. These abilities don't actually let the caster do anything of note, since there are no rules provided governing interaction with other characters in a dreamscape. Without any such information, let alone clear and concise information that doesn't turn me off entirely due to unnecessary complexity, the ability is pretty much useless since I have no idea how it would actually be implemented in a game. That pretty much wrecks half the class's non-spell features right there. On a similar note, all sections about the dream brewing drug are simply superfluous, as there are no provided mechanics. You may as well not even mention it for all the effect it would have. This class seems thematically like a genie crossed with a possession-based outsider, but actually making yourself an immaterial creature and then having to hide your body is just silly for that theme. The etherealness/astral projection is also NOT a rogue-level ability. It is highly wizard-level, as is most of the save-or-suck spells you give a member of this class. So there's a big split there between the class's stated Balance Point and what it actually is. That having been said, the original abilities related to dreams and turning into elementals are just a handicap. Right now the only real reason to use this class ever is because you get some spells. If I wanted that, I'd be a wizard. There are grammatical inconsistencies and spelling errors abound. There is very pretty much no reason for me to even feel ambivalent about this class, let alone to like it. The idea of messing with peoples' dreams is just not well-defined, and would rely extensively on DM fiat to ever be made plausible, at which point they've done more work on it than you have. Given what a DM already has to do in running a game, that's just cruel.

MisterSinister dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Let's begin with the fact that the number of spells this abortion of a class knows is a complete mystery. No seriously, check this shit out: "Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a yatri may know any number of spells in the following list:". So... how many spells do they actually know? Can they known negative numbers of spells? What about aleph-null spells? What the hell? But wait, it actually gets worse. Dreamreader Sharing opens so many rules questions about what 'sharing someone's dream' actually means that I can't see how this ability is even finished, much less workable or sane; the DC for Alien Hand (which by the way, sounds far too much like a bad masturbation technique practiced by conspiracy theorists) is far too low for anything workable, which it wouldn't be even if the DC were good, since the ability has all the clarity of a speech by the late Muammar Gadhaffi about what it actually does in actual rules text written by actual sane people; Lady of the Isle of Sleep just makes no sense at all - and holy fuck, I'm only one-third of the way through! Seriously, go read Game Design 101. Or better, learn the fucking rules instead of making up some bullshit about how they're not needed. And just don't design anything until you improve in clarity, sanity and rules knowledge. Ideally in that order.

Leziad dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Okay so let start with the flavor, it a odd concept for a base class but whatever. Now we move to the mechanics, and oh boy. The mechanics are alike a detritus that aged in the scrapyard, it mangled, incoherent and half-eaten (and half vomited). There no clue on what it was originally, well the baseline mechanics for the spectre feel the same. Even if I ignore the incoherence the class features are either very weak or stupid. In a party of bad class the Vatri would be the bottom of the barrel, the class that make the monk player feel like he is playing a sensible well thought out class. Oh sure, the Yatri can kick the Monk's ass, but so can all other Non-NPC class (and some NPC). Overall I don't want to offend, but i think you should start over. Many of your class features were already done in other classes/spell-list and I would start by making research about dream-based spells , feats and classes. That said the spell-list is decent, but there way many grammar and spelling mistake, this make using the class even more confusing. Ending Words; The class is bad, it probably not the worst BUT it horrendously crippled by all the factors I and the other pointed. As for constructive criticisms, I would encourage you to make research on existing mechanics when you want to do a class like the Yatri Spectre (and all other class for that matter).

Foxwarrior dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Charm Person, Color Spray, and similar spells do not help this class maintain a Rogue-level balance point. Dreamreader's Sharing doesn't do anything except maybe let the Yatri "Spectere" hold private conversations and waste spells. Mind Out of Body doesn't actually deal with what happens when damage, negative effects, and so on or dealt to the mind or the body: does damage to the mind stay when they merge back? Does damage to the body? Alien Hand is the wimpiest Save-or-Suck they have, even without the inferior DC, and it doesn't handle limbs that aren't arms or legs. Lady of the Isle of Sleep does not have a range, duration, casting time, or save DC, and references dream travel, which they don't have and doesn't make any sense in the context. Did you even read the power before linking it? I find it hard to imagine what you even thought it did, because an ability that traverses dreams would be a terrible ability for finding people who can't sleep. Lamp doesn't seem like an ability so much as a handicap; the Yatri Spectre's Mind Out of Body ability becomes weaker when they hit 6th level. Possess is actually very slightly entertaining, but a lack of support for controlling creatures without arms or legs (of which there are many), a poor DC, and a 7 round limit on the ability to talk to someone make it still quite terrible. King of Dreams seems to be based on nightmare, but none of the things that follow the second sentence have anything to do with the nightmare spell. The Secret of the Janni is on both an encounter-based and a daily time limit? It's not impressive that the elementals to choose from are weak at that level, either. Greater Possession's save DC is pointlessly high, and it highly incentivizes punching your friends in the arm "rolling opposing will saves every 3 combat rounds, or 3 non-active hours for control over the body". "At 13th level, a yatri may change the subjects alignment one step when wearing the crown. " This sentence is not contextually attached to any other ability, although it needs to be, and is missing an apostrophe. Oneness says that the "yarti" don't need to leave their bodies when using their abilities, but if you read those abilities, you'll find that the abilities don't need require them to leave their bodies in the first place.

	Eiji-kun dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	Huh, well, yeah... what they said. Well, I actually like the base idea. You become like a genie and that could be cool... but that idea gets muddled with other stuff and the execution is terribad. Seriously, whats up with those DCs? And the capstone isn't a capstone (it's 14th level out of 15). I don't need to retype what others have said, but I'll double plus it. Son, I am dissaplushie.

	Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	What was said above. Yeah, especially with the new changes, this is getting pretty retarded.

Rating Discussion

What etherealness/astral projection feature are you referencing? What makes becoming elemental a handicap? Have removed dream drug feature. Here, here my grammer is funky - but not incorrect (it will always have a few fragments, and strangly formated sentence). I have no intention to change it, but will ask pardon.--Franken Kesey 00:39, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I will sandbox shortly, yet have greatly enjoyed your ideas - and do not mean to avert them. Before falling into any more foolish traps, or starting any drastic endeavors, I would like to know if anyone can suggest a publication that touches on dreams. So that I may correct cruelty, unclarity, ignorance, and disappointment, I mean this with the utmost sincerity and appreciation. Thankyou --Franken Kesey 05:36, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Try Hyperconciousness, a 3rd party psionics book which, as name implies, is very much about conciousness and dreams. Stealing their mechanics and rewording might help. -- Eiji-kun 06:11, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I have added a few dream mechanics (some from the book), but need help with making them simpler. I would also like to know if the non-dream features are better. --Franken Kesey 23:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Much of the advice above has been used, to such an extent that much of it no longer applies to this class. Therefore I must ask for a new set of reviews and ratings. Thankyou --Franken Kesey 16:09, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Without feedback I see no reason to change any features. --Franken Kesey 22:15, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

You want feedback? Fine. Stop going out of the norm and creating weird mechanics, and see if you can actually build a good class that's decent and plays well without having to drastically change the system or create mechanics that aren't in line with anything else in the system. Learn how to make basic classes and write them so that they're understandable before writing grandiose ones that just flop. I haven't seen a single class from you that's been any good or that I would either play or let someone play in any of my games. Start with the basics, because as far as I can tell, it doesn't even look like you've mastered those yet. --Ghostwheel 00:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I try not to be biased, and don't judge people based on prior works, but all your works have the common theme of trying to escape traditional DnD rules and themes, and while that can be done properly, without having worked with the themes themselves, that is practically impossible. Look at what has been done, and expand upon it. Try to get a feel for what does and does not work within the system before jumping out of it. As such, I have to agree with Ghostwheel. If you make something that I believe to be useful, I'll tell you. --Havvy 02:41, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

What these folks said. Also, cut it with your bullshit 'I know my grammar sucks but I won't fix it' jank. Use English like the rest of us. - MisterSinister 04:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I have read hyperconscious, which depends on the DM completely changing the setting - and a great amount of DM fait - which others have show is cruel. It also depends on powers. Yet if anyone can find a way for a player to have a slight control over dreams (that has been expressed in the book) I am listening.

On the note of stepping into unfamiliar ground - here, here. I thought that was the purpose of this wiki, to find new and interesting ways to play dungeons and dragons; and am therefore confused at this sites meaning. I would also like to hear criticism on all non-dream features, and if I removed the dream features would it be playable. Thankyou --Franken Kesey 16:52, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Prosaic is not a concept found in my diction.

The problem isn't really that you're stepping into unfamiliar ground; it's that there doesn't seem to be any ground that's familiar to you. Your content consistently seems to make mechanical errors that seem fairly obvious to anyone who knows how the game really works, which is why some of us are suggesting ways to become less of an ignoramus. Perhaps you should try playing the game with some rules-sticklers.

Until you learn to write in prose, every mechanic you write will be poorly written. --Foxwarrior 17:47, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Writing simple stuff probably isn't a good suggestion here, as simple stuff often doesn't work, often isn't interesting, and you're unlikely to care enough to finish it and learn anything from it. But you can simplify your projects, and work on smaller sections of them at a time and build from there. So I suggest that you build in smaller increments. Instead of building a 1-20 base class, try a 1-10 base class or even a 1-5 base class (not a prestige class, as they have weird concerns). Try to write up a major ability every odd level, minor ability every level (and maybe two on evens if you want), and focus on making each of the major abilities "level appropriate". That's in scare quotes, because it means different things to different people and at different balance levels, but it's an important idea for maintaining a progression. You should avoid granting a major ability that is weaker or more marginal than a previous one (equally marginal and equally strong are somewhat ok). Minor abilities can be more varied, because they matter less, but a progression on these as well would be nice. Going with thinner abilities leads to dead levels and a potentially boring class, but you can do that if you want.

As for the diction thing, while you are welcome to write with whatever voice you want, unclear or uncommon writing patters can make a difficult concept more difficult to grasp. Instead of just trying to understand the mechanic and the writer's intent, you also need to understand what they're saying in the first place. Like Fox said, it opens you up misunderstandings and simple errors. There's a reason conversational tones and clarity are somewhat valued in rules writing, they keep you involved and are more easily understood. You buck those trends at your own peril, but it is your prerogative.

Lastly, the dreams thing. If you have access to 2e Ravenloft material, there were some playing inside dream mechanics in one of the supplements. It added dream monsters, dream selves, and so on. It was a big ordeal, but you could probably borrow qualities from the Astral and Deep Ethereal planes if you wanted. It's a lot of work to make it worthwhile though, so refluffing some existing powers as using dreams to work might be a better way to go. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 20:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Dreams

Mechanics

ThunderGod brought up a very good point on dream mechanics. This space is meant for any simplistic ideas on dreams.

Flavor

Has anybody read books from the Majipoor series by Robert Silverberg? --Franken Kesey 21:01, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I haven't. --Dr Platypus 14:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Have any comments? --Franken Kesey 14:34, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Picture

The site is not allowing me to upload this deviant. I have tried transferring it into different formats, lessened quality and tried the web source - all with no results. --Franken Kesey 17:47, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

File uploads are bugged at present. Surgo has been made aware, but I haven't heard anything back from him yet. I'll let you know when it gets sorted. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 04:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)