Talk:Cleave (3.5e Feat)

Maybe I Missed Something

But what is the difference between this and the original? --DanielDraco 22:16, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The potential for a full attack. -- Jota 22:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Some things I wondered about when responding to Eiji. Do you get the full attack if you only use a standard action attack (or charge, or whatever) to kill something? If you're TWFing (or multi-weapon fighting), do you get a whole new new full set of attacks with every weapon? The former makes this a conditional charge pounce / full-attack standard action ability and the latter is probably too many attacks, neither of which seems like they are intended or particularly fitting. Clarification please?

And why for did you cancel the existing attack sequence when they take advantage of the cleave? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Ratings

	Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	I do not like the idea of multiple full-attacks a round save for a few case (Time Stand Still). This also bring problem like full-attacking outsider your turn because some fool provoked an AoO.

	Eiji-kun opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Wat. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaat. Did no one see the bag of rattery with this, nevermind the strength? How did this gain so many likes? Have 4 attacks a round. Make 3, kill rat in 4th, four more attacks. There, Time Stands Still -1 forever.

Did you not see the "You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this attack, and you can only use this ability once per round." limits on it Eiji? You can single rat I guess to get an extra set of attacks I guess, but meh. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 16:19, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I did Tark. It's not an infinite loop, but it is a rather large boost. It ensures that as long as you have a rat to burn your last attack on, you can pull out a second full action. You don't see a problem with just giving away the Eternal Blade/Diamond Mind discipline capstones, but even easier? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with those capstones, but granting something via feat that resembles or even duplicates a capstone does not offend me on its own. If it's a reasonable ability to grant via feat, then it's a reasonable ability to grant via feat. It's not a sacrosanct ability just because it's a class feature, even a capstone. And in this case, if this is a capstone for a class... then that class has a crappy capstone.

And in this case I think it is an appropriate ability to grant via a feat, with the possible exception of edge cases that I noticed and commented on above. Even in the absolute best case, it's granting you the same number of attacks as if you were instead TWFing at the start (this value comparison hinges on you taking the single feat TWF (like MS's, not tome) instead of the SRD chain. if you don't think that's an appropriate change then I expect we'll disagree on the rest too), at a higher bonus that I don't mind because it's conditional. If you're going to rat for it, you're giving up an attack in exchange for that benefit. It's not an ideal trade, and the part where you give up the rest of your current attack chain is just weird, but it's hardly out of line in comparison with other feat options IMO. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

	TK-Squared is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.
	Eh, it's better than the original; but that's... about it. It doesn't do anything for me.

	Ghostwheel likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Definitely an improvement on the original feat--I still want to think about how this might affect the game in general though, and might increase the favor in the future.

	Havvy is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.
	The fix is obvious, but effective. Most of the players who play Fighters I know choose Cleave as a feat, and making fighters better is a win in my books.

	Tarkisflux favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Full attack cleave? It's certainly an interesting improvement. It potentially has a really long resolution time in conjunction with Great Cleave, but that's not going to stop me from rating this as highly as I can.

DanielDraco likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

This makes Fighters a far more appealing class. You can take down a mook without reducing your ability to also attack a bigger foe. Basically, it gives you a rudimentary ability to produce something like an area effect, and the area-like nature of it is further enhanced with Great Cleave. With various cheese to boost reach and damage (Crusader/Warblade with Stormguard Warrior and reach-boosting feats, anyone?), you can potentially use this to tread into Very High damage output, but I think that extends beyond the "reasonable" optimization we're meant to consider.