Talk:Dream Lord (3.5e Prestige Class)

Ratings

Surgo dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

Missing rules. Waking Nightmares - does not specify what action to use to perform the summon, does not specify what check needs to be made (just its DC). It also lets you summon just about any CR you want no matter what level you are as long as you can pass the (unspecified) check, which is just insane. Aside from the missing rules, this class is just a little weird. The rules don't really feel like it has anything to do with its flavor, and all it can really do is summon a few shadow creatures.

	Zhenra-Khal likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Interesting flavor, and very well put-together; I just don't see myself using it beyond letting a PC level in it if they desired.

	Nolanf likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	The dream lord makes for an excellent NPC. Writing dream sequences is a whole lotta fun! However, I reserve giving this a perfect score until I get a chance to test it as a player.

Blocked Rating	Wildmage likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.I realy like the idea and the fluff, would like more dreamscape into this but know its hard. But paying 2 spell levels a real caster will not Minor nidpick when you other color letters its anoyes me.

	Qwertyu63 favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	A class based around whispering your ideals into the dreams of others? Great idea, and well executed. Full marks.

	Luigifan18 favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	My rating for this page has been long overdue... I simply love this class and its mechanics. The use of the word "round" in the "Into the Dream" section has me slightly confused, and I really miss the dream points, but other than that, the mechanics are really, really solid. Bravo!

Blocked Rating

ThunderGod Cid dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.So several of my previous complaints still stand. There are still wacky spell progressions for no reason, logical or otherwise. And there is still the issue of getting to usurp the DM as part of your class features is simply not OK. You have an apparent conflict of interest created by you being simultaneously a player and the DM which pretty much cannot be reconciled. The giant exposition on sendings almost creates as many problems as it solves.

Blocked Rating	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.Anything that involves "cutting the DM out" is a minus in my mind.

Blocked Rating

Foxwarrior is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.Aid Ally is pretty irrelevant. Waking visions is okayish now, I guess. Will saves don't progress at a rate of almost exactly 2 per level (after all modifiers), though, so the chance that it scales to remain reasonably useful but not overpowered is unlikely. Sniping people with curses is not a High-balance tactic. I almost like Sending now, good job. The thing where the GM chooses a power level depending upon a dream's "creativity" doesn't really go with the way mechanics are supposed to work in D&D though.

This class has received some major overhauls. However, I am certain that it still deserves these ratings, but for perhaps different reasons. Thus I would like to request a rating update. Thank you. --Franken Kesey (talk) 18:46, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Ratings need to be updated.--Franken Kesey (talk) 22:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I feel like I should clarify that the wacky part of the spell list is that it starts at level 2 rather than 1. Not to mention that it's a prestige class, yet it gets its own wholly separate spell list. So removing the spell list is one solution, but it doesn't mean you need to remove it entirely. The bit about the conflict of interest still holds, though, and I'm not sure what can be done to fix it. - TG Cid (talk) 06:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Rating request. The class is now much more simple.--Franken Kesey (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Foxwarrior Comments

Even if only temporary and the DM can play an alternate character? Mind you, the sending is mostly intended against enemies, in which case the DM would become more like a PC with multiple characters (depending on how many the ruya brings). The only differences being: 1) the ruya instead of the DM controls the environment; 2) the ruya has a limit to amount of ally NPC’s it can bring (there are plenty of other way to bring in player controlled NPCs outside this class); 3) and there is a time limit (the DM is a DM most of the session). --Franken Kesey 17:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Generally this is meant to be used against enemies. Personally I greatly enjoy player vs. player action – which is why it is an option, only an option. Not one meant to be used often. The intent is to persuade enemies or plot controlling NPC’s via their subconscious, instead of the direct route done by most classes.

Certainly it can be done; yet with the abilities to change the shape of dreams, using spells should not be necessary. It is a hypnosis or conditioning that requires a bit more ingenuity than “I have a spell – I use the spell”.

What is Inception? You capitalized it, leading me to believe it is a thing. --Franken Kesey 17:50, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Inception is a wonderful movie which explores the idea of dream conflicts as a mental assault mechanism. --Foxwarrior 17:58, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If you're going to take half a session just to use the entire party to mind control one guy, it might be a good idea to aim for a lower balance point. Also, allowing straightforward mind control spells inside the dream makes other methods of psychological attack quite irrelevant. --Foxwarrior 18:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I have played with rogues and other lone-wolf types who take up a whole session – the interchange only between themselves and the DM. Admittedly this does not happen often, perhaps for the sole reason of it being unkind to other party members. Such opportunities some players should have, for they afford players with much more depth of character. This class would allow for this, while posses a few different limiters that mitigate abuse.

This class is inspired by Robert Silverberg’s Majipoor Series (as is much of my work). Will check out the movie, but will most likely not change much of the flavor. I must encourage those who play this to read some of his work to better understand the intent. Thank you for taking the time to criticize the article, thank you for helping me improve the land of dreams! --Franken Kesey 19:15, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Recent Changes: 1) no longer cuts out the DM; 2) Throne given more abilities; 3) evil defined: 4) sendings given more limiters; 5) fluff improved; 6) greatly decreased spell selection. Is it better? What would you suggest to improve this article? --Franken Kesey 18:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Using alignment shifts as a trigger mechanism is an exceedingly poor idea. There is no situation in which the DM must choose to apply an alignment shift, and only minimal guidelines on when they probably should. If the Ruya Spectre isn't in the campaign, there's a significant probability that no alignment shifts will ever happen; thus, the Throne of Dreams is primarily powered by DM pity. --Foxwarrior 22:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I hear you. How would you trigger it? (If one was intending for it to only trigger due to horrendous evils.) --Franken Kesey 23:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Better? --Franken Kesey 16:59, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Would it be better if the session limiter was taken out? I was trying to find a manner to keep every session from becoming a dream (but less is more, right). In reality this should be moved to VH, and I will change spells to sorcerer list. --Franken Kesey (talk) 21:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Foxwarrior: (reply to above rating)

1. Craft (sedative): the subject now awakes if sufficient lethal damage is taken (anything more than a needle).
2. Aid Ally: now only concentration and Wisdom-based skill checks.
3. The Throne: now has a duration, and concentration check if interrupted (which is purposefully ridiculous).
4. Blessing of Greater Power: Removed.
5. Unsure what you are talking about with the Setup Will DCs. Are you suggesting a better way?
6. The intent was to work with metaphor (not literal). Most restrictions here are meant to limit ones temporary GM status. The other restrictions are there to limit how much of a nightmare one can make (to keep them from becoming only denizens of lunacy). The challenging climb up a mountain to boost an allies resolute purpose to continue to fight even in a darkening day; or to turn an army against its tyrannical master, after witnessing the destructive force of a parasite. Thank you --Franken Kesey (talk) 22:12, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

What I'm saying with the Setup Will DCs is that it seems to be an opposed Will check, which means that you just have to find a creature with a really terrible Will save. Also, a 30 HD Wizard is stronger than a 30 HD Zombie.

The thing about the dream is that it's just a dream. Nothing that happens in it matters directly to the greater game as a whole, so the nitty-gritty details of how many hit points are lost in the battle with the dream squid are especially pointless. The stuff that actually matters (boosting an ally's resolute purpose, turning an army against its master) has no rules at all, other than a +5 bonus to Bluff checks.

What's fundamentally wrong with the dream lord being able to say "This dream ends with you all being crushed to death by a whale"? --Foxwarrior (talk) 11:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Just the Dreams

Yes, this is my fourth try at making a dream centered class (Nahlasit, Vivika, Yatri, Ruya). The initial class, the Nahlasit, went to all four directions of the earth, each amendment diluted and focused the ideas therein to a finer specimen. In time the others will be also diluted to make them more branches than a set of progressions. This one is just the dreams. --Franken Kesey 20:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Balance Point

Some of the abilities in this class allow for one to be well into very high balance (like: Sendings, Crown of Dreams, Throne of Dreams). Yet there is one property that could place it into the moderate category: every other session one cannot enter into a dream (the fulrum of this class). This can be fooled by making the subject think they are in a dream, with the illusionary spells; yet does it hurt a character enough to lower the balance point, when a character can only use the features 50% of the time? Would giving a character spell-casting levels in a previous class, at 4th and 8th level, solidify its current balance? --Franken Kesey 17:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

New point system? Well, time to go back to the Enhance seed...

I designed an epic spell seed, called enhance, and one of its functions is to provide temporary points of any type except hit points (enhance's job is basically to provide any sort of buffs that fortify can't). So I decided to work the dream points in. Just figured I'd drop a line and let you know. --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Very nice, thank you for adding the somewhat obscure dream points. Noticed you have made some rather fun and interesting spells elsewhere, but became forlorn when noticing that most where 9th-level. While you are thinking up more spells, this class could use some more 6th and 7th-level spells, especially ones that cripple, use illusions or enchantments (and dealt no HP damage). --Franken Kesey (talk) 13:39, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, no more dream points. You may want to remove them from your page. --Franken Kesey (talk) 21:07, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

...Awwww. *sigh* Time to go back to work. (As a side note, I'm actually working on designing a class myself.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 22:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Alignment?

Why is this race unavailable to good alignments? Its flavor makes it seem like it should disallow evil. --Luigifan18 (talk) 23:43, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I hear you, this class does not force options – why should it not restrict against Evil? Evil has so many different understandings in this world; from the naive cliché, to being self-centered, from the deadly sins to breaking a social rule; in some places it is honorable to murder, and in others ones statues is defined by how well one deceives. Generally altering another, to a behavior that is against the social custom, is considered to be “Evil”. Yes, this would mean if one changed a liar into one who only spoke the truth, in a society that favored liars, then tautologically you would be considered “Evil”. Thus I must ask how you define Evil in Dungeons and Dragons. --Franken Kesey (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, to me, Evil is blatant disregard for the rights and welfare of other living things. It's selfishness well above and beyond mere self-preservation; it's outright disdain for (almost) everything but oneself. The greedy corporate executive screwing everyone else over in pursuit of profit, the dark priest conducting human sacrifices, the madman trying to purge 80% of the world population, the brutal conqueror seeking to overthrow a legitimate government, the brutal dictator who rules by murdering all who oppose him - all of these are exemplars of Evil. But Evil can also be pettier things like robbing a bank, mugging random people on the street (especially the elderly), committing rape, or shoving somebody into the mud for no damn reason (except to show off one's "power"). Actually, bullies in general are Evil in my book. (Yes, that's right. To me, all bullies are utter monsters who need to repent or die in a fire.) Still, my original question was - why aren't Dream Sages allowed to be Good? --Luigifan18 (talk) 02:09, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

It is good to know somebody still believes that there are those that are not selfish. Our club has been diminishing over the years. I have a few situational questions, on clarity (to better help us be on the same page). What would you consider somebody who stole from a bank to feed their kids? Or disregarding one species to help a weaker one (most conservation efforts)? True, there are no arguments against a purely legitimate government… Yet how many of those are there (and who decides if they are legitimate)? (One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.)

On to your definition: you mention welfare. If ones welfare is also dependent on not being in a state of terror, could it be considered mercy? Or if the majority’s welfare was dependent on the loss of a few, would it be validated? Is it the means or the ends that are Evil?

Of course with the elderly there is no excuse! To pay for your wife’s life-saving surgery, or set up a school for the homeless orphans. No! Elderly, and perhaps children, are off limits. It is the other realms, being a bully in prison (which might just be a survival technique) and other things that are considered clean cut “Evils” that I am confused with.

In fact, even with the old and young it can be situational. Sure, not always – not even usually – more on rare cases. Most greedy corporate executives, dark priests, madmen (and woman), and brutal dictators are elderly; not to mention the armies of brutal conquerors and soldiers that are comprised of children!

In conclusion: Evil appears more situational, defined by the ruling culture. Then again, Evil is a thing of shadow – the thing with shadow is you can never really place it. --Franken Kesey (talk) 03:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Cooed

Cooed, was the intended word, not clued. Oxford definition: “speak in a soft gentle voice”. If you do not think that cooed fits, then I can change to something more appropriate. --Franken Kesey (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Dream Complexity

What are your thoughts on the many different dream variations? Does it appear too complex? Does this class have enough options when not able to do a sending (every other session)? Also, does it appear that this class may outshine other players to a point of being disrespectful or overly abusive? (Or, perhaps, you are leaning the other way, thinking it should be more complex.) --Franken Kesey (talk) 01:42, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Microforged Conglomerate

I'm pretty sure I have some idea why all the other races are listed, but why would a nanobot herd with a Wisdom penalty be a particularly good fit for this class? --Foxwarrior (talk) 21:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Microforged Conglomerate's were added, in part for their swarm and distraction abilities, but more so for their Imitate feature. While not inherently fear based, such a build is also not improbable. As to the wisdom penalty, Mousa also have a similar penalty. A dream sage done cleanly would have a pure clarity of mind. A flavorful and more realistic sage might have gone insane after living in too many illusions. Thus I do not see any problem with being slightly less wise. --Franken Kesey (talk) 23:57, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Immunities

At 2nd level, Ooze, Vermin, Mindless: Constructs, Plants, and Undead are immune to a sages sendings – yet all other creatures are vulnerable to the feature. Granted a mean GM could make a campaign with only the above creatures, which would make this class unusable (this would require the intentional GM sabotage). An easier way to make this class unusable would to simply not allow it. But most campaigns have plenty of creatures not with the aforementioned types – Ooze and Plant can be rather rare – the concern for such a condition is unfounded. --Franken Kesey (talk) 02:18, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

DS abilities

1)"Cannot be true neutral" Why? TN characters can still have convictions.

2)This is a spellcasting class which requires that you be able to cast spells, but does not continue your current spellcasting. That's not VH level.

3)Into the dream is needlessly complicated. What you've described is a logistical nightmare.

4)Smite immoral is a nerfed smite good/evil/chaos/law, and belongs nowhere near a VH character.

5)+bullshit bonuses to wisdom still don't make up for the fact that someone who wants to max out this class must lose five levels of spellcasting from their primary spellcasting class.

6)Craft(whatever) is specifically used to refer to abilities that actually make something.

7)Why is crystal of dreams EX? Does it require a crystal ball? It seems different and inferior to the SRD crystal ball.

8)Why is crown of dreams EX? Wouldn't it just be better to use the already existing mechanics for plane shift and greater teleport?

9)Why is throne of dreams EX? Is it a disease? A curse?

10)Are the following three abilities or magic items?

-Overall, a needlessly confusing and complicated class, whose abilities do not match up with VH level content. Fluffykittens (talk) 20:12, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

1)Hmm. Interesting thought – and certainly true. Mind if I asked how you define evil?

2)No spell list had all the spells that I wanted – not even half. Thus create a list that had all the desired. Yet the list does start at level 2, instead of 0 level, and gives 4th level spells at the same time as sorcerers would get them (if they had not taken this class). This class continues spell-casting simply with a different list.

3)Agreed, how would you minimize the mathematics, while still giving more opportunities as sage level up? Are stages 2-5 (exluding avatar), also overly complicated? How would you fix this? Thank you. Nightmare? Love your choice in words.

4)Wanted to have a feature that defined Immoral (for latter abilities). But can see where you are coming from. Hmm. Might consider putting the definition in the throne feature (it really is the only one that has to have it); then, of course, removing the Smite.

5)I should hope that players do not rank in this class only for the Wisdom bonus. See above for spell-casting.

6)This was the intent, will add clarification. The action types indicate time necessary to disperse the sedative, thankyou for indicating the need for a duration on creating sedatives.

7)Yes much better! Will replace. (See below for EX, put in one place.)

8)Did not want this to be a teleporting class. The crown is toned down, has a class related cost (DP), and as far as fluff is concerned follows better with intent. (See below for EX, put in one place.)

9)It is a curse, but there are no fun curses (canon is limited to -1d6 to an ability, or talk to GM). So, instead the sage curses a victim with a disease. Thus, it is in a way both.

10)Why extraordinary? The crystal crown and throne are not really magical, more scientific. While well beyond the capabilities of today’s world, it would be a bit of a misstep to say they were not possible. And they are items – but not magical.

Are you suggesting lowering the balance – even thought the player become a GM for a few rounds – to High? Thankyou, you have given much insight into the problems, and I look forward to your definition.--Franken Kesey (talk) 21:12, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

1)The alignment system is one of the biggest problems in DND. I'd suggest you avoid it as much as possible, until someone comes up with a fix (to avoid problems like, "my terrorist character is LG, his strapping a bomb onto his daughter and telling her to blow up an orphanage was act of righteous rebellion, helping a martyr in the destruction of an oppressive tyranny").

2)In that it would be better to simply add those spells to the character's spell list. As is, a SOR5/DS5 casts sorcerer spells with a caster level of 5 and a spell level of 0-3, and DS spells spells with a caster level of 5 and a spell level of 2-6. When they level up, they can't level their dream sage spellcasting (as no progression table is provided), so they have to level their now underleveled sorcerer spellcasting, meaning that they are 5 levels behind on spellcasting in the long run, thus making this a simply bad option for VH characters to take. Or you could remove the spellcasting requirement, and let this class grant supplemental spellcasting (like the assassin) and scale it to H.

3)Swap out the existing mechanics with the mechanics for the spells dream and/or nightmare, and possibly add a few effects on top of that(such as charm, fear, contingent suggestion, and so forth) as well as adding genesis to the characters spell list (in order to let them create a dreamscape at higher levels)

4)It might be better to simply remove this and give them an entirely different class feature.

5)Still, +bullshit bonuses to stats are boring and unflavorful, and can potentially throw off the RNG. You should replace this class feature with something else.

6)You should make this, in that case, an item that can be created (and possibly only used) by this class.

8)Mechanically speaking, the mechanics for plane shift and the teleport line are clear and well-understood. You should change it to "this functions as teleport, except in xyz ways".

9)In that case, you should include a few curses of your own, turn this into a SU ability, and give it a range (to prevent love's pain style cheese).

10)It would be better than to make it clear that these are items, and provide stats for them as items then.

If you wants this to remain a primary caster class, you should scale various features to VH; if you want this to grant supplemental spellcasting (like the blackguard); you should scale this to high or medium.Fluffykittens (talk) 22:30, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Requiring the character to have a sleep, a compulsion, and an illusion spell indicates that the character would be playing at VH balance level. There's no reason for such a character to lose three levels of spellcasting in order to gain abilities they could get in some form or another anyway.Fluffykittens (talk) 01:26, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, "Sage" implies a scholar or some sort. I don't see anything particularly scholarly about this class.Fluffykittens (talk) 01:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Also, when you get done re-writing throne of dreams, remember to limit the range, number of targets, and number of times it can be targeted at a single character.Fluffykittens (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

1)Oh, you have no idea how much I agree. They are the truly fascinating characters – the corruption is, after a time, others also begin to believe. Morality: what a silly idea. How do you see it function? Certainly there needs to be a way to qualify when an action goes against a conviction – you would not want a sage to be able to curse everyone they meet.

2)What? Sounds a bit confusing, could you put it in another way?

3)Major changes to the sending’s mechanics, check them out.

4)You do not think it fits in a High balanced campaign?

6)Fixed. Is price, and amount of work needed appropriate?

8)Sticking with the crown. Not really liking the spells.

9)Fixed. What is “love's pain style cheese?”

10)Hardness, and HP do you also want dimensions? For with the crown this is much easier; yet, noting that you choose the shape and material components of the throne, it is uncertain if this would be the best approach. Perhaps a link to the breaking and entering page (not that you really want to give players more math), so they can calculate scores.

A bard can rank in this class at 8th level, and a bard is balanced at H. With the skill requirements, no character can rank in this class before 8th level. In fact it was designed to handicap major spell-casters who would need five levels in a spell-casting class, and at least one level in a class that granted the skills as class skills (but still could have an LA or another level if they had enough skills). Will drop the sleep requirement. Do you know of any sleep-related feats, that could be used as pre-requisites?

Hmm, it appears that the bulk of what you are suggesting it that this class is too weak. Which does ally the worry that temporary GM-like abilities was beyond reason. If the class was white-washed with a 1-1 ratio of previous spell-casting class, there would be no reason not to always add it to, say, a wizard. It’s ability to put almost any creature to sleep, in not without major grounding. --Franken Kesey (talk) 02:25, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

1)I was suggesting you should leave out any references to alignment in the class mechanics, in order to avoid the alignment problems.

2)You changed it to h- but you should still add either bonus to an old spellcasting class, or add in a new spellcasting progression (that progresses beyond dream sage 5). If it's supposed to be a bard add-on, it should improve bardic music as well.

3)Still essentially creates a whole new DND subsession. This is a large waste of time.

8)As is, the mechanics are almost identical to the teleport spell. What I was suggesting was that you should link back to the teleport spell, and then describe any differences (IE: Stalker (SU): Three times a day, a sage may teleport to a target he has scryed on within the past 24 hours, as the spell teleport (self and up to medium load only). If he has his wearing his crown of dreams, it functions as greater teleport instead(self and up to medium load only).)

10) You should put the crystal gear in Wondrous items, and the soporifics in Poisons.

The love's pain spell deals damage to the targets most loved one on a successful ranged touch attack on the target. The problem as I can see it is this allows a "high" level class to hurt enemies several countries away with no fear of retaliation.Fluffykittens (talk) 04:03, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

1)So, “can curse anyone they have given a sending to in the past year”?

8)Fixed to teleport.

10)Would prefer it if only dream sage could use these items, been meaning to clarify that for some time.

Yes that is the intent! To live in a cellar, but rule the world. Sure there are methods to retaliate, if limited. Are you beginning to see its true power?--Franken Kesey (talk) 05:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

"live in a cellar but rule the world" seems wizard level. If you can utterly defeat your enemies without fear of retaliation from miles away, that's not rogue balance. As for the items, you should make them separate from the class features. It's okay for class features to be enhanced by, rely on, modify, create, or destroy items, but if your class features are items, you get a serious version of Elothar Warrior of Bladereach (3.5e Prestige Class).Fluffykittens (talk) 05:58, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Fixed gear.

Yes. You will notice that no spell deal direct damage, that no class feature deals direct damage – they only hinder or curse creatures. Give them incentives to follow the righteous path. Some give serious weaknesses, that may allow others to kill the victim, but do not kill by themselves. --Franken Kesey (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Ok, two things. You can retaliate with a build that scrys or teleports – there are many that can do so with much greater prowess. And, just realized that the Mark of Pain does deal damage (by removing parts); perhaps there is a better way to curse. Do you have any ideas on curses? Or do you think there are any curses that need to be added? Thankyou --Franken Kesey (talk) 21:42, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Knowledge

Knowledge (religion) in D&D. Hmm. Is it purely Theistic? Is Knowledge (the planes) the domain of math and science? Perhaps Arcana takes things like dark matter or the Akashic Records – theories. Allusion would fit the build of History or Local, or Bard. And Morality? Where to situate it? Does it have to be secular? Hmm. And to be clear, the intent is to keep disproportion to a minimum. Arcane is a class skill for almost all those mentioned. Does Arcana have an ethical edge? Are ethics only theories. Hmm.

Knowledge in D&D, no matter what kind, is always theoretical, as if read in a book. For instance, your first question is about what kind of religion does Knowledge(religion) cover - D&D allows for a wide variety of religions and Knowledge skill in this area is assumed to cover all of them equally. Someone with a high Knowledge(religion) skill would presumably know a lot about the Good gods, Evil gods, Neutral gods, as well as the spiritual-atheist religions.

Knowledge(The Planes) is no more scientific than knowledge of any other kind. This knowledge is in regard to other planes of existence, e.g., Heaven, Hell, the Shadow Realm, or the Astral Plane, to name a few.

There is a lively discussion on Morality in one of the discussion threads above. Since D&D allows for different religions, morality cannot be contingent upon any one of them. A very wise psychologist named Kohlberg studied morality at length. I highly recommend that you read his theories because they're real eye-openers. I won't go into them here except to say that Evil, in D&D terms, would be more or less consistent with Kohlberg's lowest levels of moral reasoning. That is to say, if a person is primarily concerned with himself, without consideration for those around him, that could be considered evil. Kohlberg never used the word "evil" in his studies because babies have no morality and no one would ever call a baby "evil." Nonetheless, that's the closest I've come to defining it for this game.

As for what "Arcane" means, the glossary in the Players Handbook states, "Arcane spells involve the direct manipulation of mystic energies." It's basically magic that is neither Divine nor Profane.

Yes, ethics are only theories.

--Nolanf (talk) 08:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Kohlberg is known to me. Interesting that you brought him up - strongly disagree with his theories and those of Piaget. Will consider again what knowledge skill is best. --Franken Kesey (talk) 14:44, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Luigifan18 Comments

Luigifan18, is the sending section better? When next you GM, what hamstrings or house rules would you give to a potential player (who wants to play this class)? Are there any dandelions in the otherwise marvelous field of flowers – for it only takes a few to destroy beauty. Or would you want the player to have a few features expanded?--Franken Kesey (talk) 06:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

...Hey, I happen to like dandelions... --Luigifan18 (talk) 12:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Nolan's Notes

I can see that I got to reading this class after a lot of changes have been made.
What I see looks amazing. This is honestly one of the best ideas I've ever seen for a d&d character!
The class has some very powerful abilities, but balanced by being contingent on several physical items being present (crown, throne, crystal ball, etc). If an enemy knew enough to attack his items directly, the Dream Lord would be significantly de-powered. So bravo, Franken Kesey.
By the way, I can tell that this class has absolutely nothing to do with Neil Gaiman's Sandman... but I think it would be worth your time to check it out.
For instance, Sandman's first story arc starts with Dream being trapped in a magic glass bubble. Cultists had taken advantage of him and stole his helmet, his bag of sand, and the jewel he wore around his neck. When he breaks out of his bubble, he puts the head cultist into a continuous nightmare state from which he can never awaken... And the story goes from there.
Maybe you have already read it. I don't know. But I think it's important. So important, even, that if you want, I'll send you my copies of the Sandman series. --Nolanf (talk) 07:33, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

As extrapolated, did not come form the series. But as few things are new, instead, the parts remain only one's role can change. So too is the chance that Sandman was inspired by this class's inspiration, or the inspiration was long ago derived from the Sandman. The entomology is old, but beginning is not known. Side note: How will you send your copies? --Franken Kesey (talk) 06:43, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh right. I guess I was just being a zealous fan of The Sandman when I wrote that. Since I can't think of an easy way to exchange mailing addresses without making it public on this forum, I guess the best I can do is strongly urge you to read the series.

So I take it you haven't read it. The series started in the late 80's ('88, I think). I suppose the idea originated with DC's silver-age Sandman (and there are references to him in Vol. 2), but it became clear that after Neil Gaiman got a hold of the character, there was no going back to the old one. The Sandman will forever be his. In fact, other authors have gone out of their way to get Gaiman's permission to use his characters in their series (Death, Lucifer, and the Dead Boy Detectives come readily to mind). The paperback collections divide the comics into 10 volumes (not counting the Death spinoffs, Endless Nights, etc). My favorites are Vol. 4: Season of Mists and Vol. 7: Brief Lives, although every volume has its own undeniable gems.

And now this thread is hopelessly off topic. Sorry about that. --Nolanf (talk) 08:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Check out the Majipoor series. Especially the Lady of the Isle of Sleep and the King of Dreams. --Franken Kesey (talk) 19:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Range of Sending?

I was looking over the details of this class again, and I couldn't find a range for the Sending ability. Unless you tell me differently, I'll assume it's short (25ft +5ft/2 levels), based on the fact that you intend the character to use the Crown of Dreams to teleport in and out of the location. I'm also assuming that the dream lord needs to have line of sight on the subject. --Nolanf (talk) 09:06, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

“

A lord must find their subject, be in the same plane, and the subject must be sleeping to do this.

”

This is the only limiter to range. And many have raised this to be the main concern over this class. The ability to snipe people from continents away. Powerful, hell yes! (Perhaps even the balance should change.) However, this will remain – to stay true to the intent. --Franken Kesey (talk) 19:40, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay. I'll be introducing the character to my group this weekend. The good guys are a monk, a fighter, and a paladin. The dream lord character ended up being an aasimar sorcerer (lv 8)/dream lord (lv 5), which essentially makes him a level-11 spell caster. In keeping with the dream lord theme, most of his sorcerer powers are from the illusion school.

Since the good guys are no good at long range or against magic, I feel like giving them a chance to see the creature that will be intruding on their dreams... I'll give some serious thought to how I'm going to play this. --Nolanf (talk) 21:51, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Make sure to check out the variant spell list at the bottom of page. Perhaps the party first become friends with the lord, and the lord becomes a companion. When the party sleeps the lord starts to slowly alter their morality - until the most resolved figures out the lord's true intentions. And the party designs the lord to be The Enemy of the campaign. Regardless of how you do it, best of luck, and I hope it sheds new light on what is possible.--Franken Kesey (talk) 01:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Test Case

I brought a dream lord in as an NPC, but only in a limited capacity. I originally intended to make this character much more significant, but the group got waylaid and then we had to cut the adventure short. So there was only one time during the whole adventure that the group got to encounter this most mysterious character.
In this one encounter, I waited until the adventurers were asleep (except for the one guy who was on watch), then I picked one and sent him this dream:

You’re wandering through the woods alone. It’s daytime, but the air is thick with mist. You know, without seeing, that there are wolves about. In a small clearing in front of you, a wolf pads slowly and then stops. You’re not afraid. You look at each other for a moment and then you approach it. It stares deep into you. As you get closer, you notice it has human eyes. There is a small campfire. You sit next to it and the wolf sits across from you. You hear a dim humming, as if the crackle of the fire, the rustle of leaves in the trees, the wolf’s low intonations, and yourself are all in chorus with each other. The woods grow around you and dissolve into the eternal cosmos. The universe is filled with bright stars and wonders beyond imagining. In the center is the fire, and the wolf, and you. The wolf nuzzles your hands. You look at them and see that they glow with fiery energy. The wolf howls and you awake, filled with the undeniable feeling that the wolf is your friend.

So I had some fun writing this and a few other dream sequences (but the others never came into play, sadly).
I'm still not entirely sure how this character would play as a player character, but it sure is great as a DM-controlled character. I intend to test this character more in the future. --Nolanf (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

im making

It will be similar to this one but I'm running out of idea's

Was that a statement, question, or something else? It was certainly not a sentence. Did you intend to sign your comment? Are you AI, and this is your first conversation with a human? Regardless of the rational...of that collection of symbols, make sure to respond with something useful.--Franken Kesey (talk) 20:21, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Review

Requesting a review of class.--Franken Kesey 02:46, 22 November 2016 (UTC)